New Registry Scores
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Uh huh, ONE.

 

And several more that were $27. And about a dozen that were $30. There were more, but I got tired of listing them all. Did everyone expect me to get the dollar value down to the cent?

 

 

The problem I am guessing OT had was that Greg ASSUMED that the coin he was referring to was a $25 coin. OT did not specify which coin he was referring to.

 

Then OT should be more specific. Unless he is going to be specific then we have to assume that the coin is generic. After all, if the coin were a 1953-S in MS65FBL wouldn't his argument have been so much stronger had he stated that the coin was rare? He didn't, so it is fully correct to assume that it is a generic (common) coin.

 

 

A 1957-D FBL Franklin MS65 earns 49 points, find one of those for anything even approaching $25.

 

$30

$30

$33

$33

$30

$27

 

Were these prices close enough for this super rarity?

 

 

I believe this is the coin OT was referring to.

 

Yes, a cheap generic coin. A $25* coin.

 

 

 

*Within a close amount to that for the anal forum members.

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Were these prices close enough for this super rarity?

 

Yeah OK, this is not what the coin normally sells for though. It is generally more in the 60 to 70 dollar range if it has decent eye appeal.

 

Then OT should be more specific.

 

It was obvious that he was referring to a specific coin. You however jumped to a conclusion ... a guess, then stated your opinion based on that guess as if it were fact.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

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Yeah OK, this is not what the coin normally sells for though. It is generally more in the 60 to 70 dollar range if it has decent eye appeal.

 

I disagree. I found several examples of this coin selling in this range. A generic (dog) coin sells for this. Nicer coins sell for more. The registry isn't for nicer coins. It is for higher grades.

 

Decent eye appeal might be in the $60-$70 range. Monster toned might be in the $2000-$2500 range. However, neither is what we are talking about. We are talking about a registry coin (grade, not quality).

 

It was obvious that he was referring to a specific coin. You however jumped to a conclusion ... a guess, then stated your opinion based on that guess as if it were fact.

 

Well I knew he was referring to a specific coin he had, however, he didn't mention what coin this was. In fact I don't think he has mentioned it in this entire thread. Therefore, I rightfully assumed it was a generic coin. Until OT states otherwise I will still consider it a generic coin. If it isn't generic, then he needs to state that. He also needs to redirect his anger because his "better" coin gets the same points as a generic coin.

 

Let's cut the here. Were his coin super for the grade and with nice luster and it really is a $60-$70 dollar coin, it still isn't rare. Is it worth more than 49 points? A coin with a population around 20,000 coins in MS65FB and thousands more in higher grades. Maybe. I don't know the weightings and I honestly don't care, but let's stop the crying about a common coin.

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A 1957-D FBL Franklin MS65 earns 49 points, find one of those for anything even approaching $25. I believe this is the coin OT was referring to.

 

Maybe the initial post would have been more beneficial had it listed specific examples where coins were under- or over-scored? It just said that, generically, no MS65FBL Franklin should get 49 points. Without providing detail, he could be talking about a 53-S or a 58-D.

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You are absolutely right, but what I am saying is that coins in auctions are sometimes completely overlooked, and if only one person looks at a $1 auction and bids, the coin will sell for $1. This occurence will render the auction stats as unreliable. Therefore, it's very hard for me to say that that reflects a trend.

 

How many examples constitute a trend? If you look at the price history, a year ago, the 58-D was selling for almost twice what it is today, and even if Greg's examples are lower than you expect, he's got a lot of them in the sub-$36 range.

 

Greg lists 15 examples from Teletrade at $36 or below. Only 41 have sold in the last year, so a 1/3 of the examples are trading below your idea of the market. Is that enough to suspect a trend?

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Keith: I will get back to you on the Franklin's.

 

In the meantime, Greg you are a bully. You come on this site only to ridicule other people's efforts. You could go back to the other board, where bullying is a way of life, but you got kicked off that site, didn't you (probably for bullying someone over there). I do not know if you have been reinstated and I do not really care.

 

I am not aware that I am having trouble on this site with many other people. If so, I wish that they would let me know. There have been a couple on instances, one of which was another bullying session. The other, I appologised for. You are an immature boy, Greg. You need to hack the chip off your shoulder. My bet is that you are not such a bully in person, so you bring your act over here. If you acted like this in person, someone would straighten you out in a hurry. Sometimes you are funny but this is not one of those times.

 

I am having serious personal problems at the moment and do not have the patience to deal with you now. So, knock off the innuendo (which is your favorite tool) and go bother someone else.

 

It is you and not I that ridicules people on this site. tongue.gif

Edited by Oldtrader3

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CDR,

 

I don't have any problem with you, and I don't think that anyone else does either. We're here for the same reason, to discuss the merits of coins. wink.gif

 

Greg generally speaks wisdom, even if the presentation is slightly blunt. Everything that he has said on pricing, he has been able to back up with facts. And to the best of my knowledge, he has never been booted from PCGS, and posted there not too long ago.

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The Issac Edmund's Auction had a number of Franklin's. There were both common date and scarce date. The bidding for the common date Franklin's was quite slow, with prices soft and below Grey Sheet. The Better Date coins, of course) had stronger bidding and pricing.

 

I also have picked a few examples from EBay. Now mind you, I do not have a single coin in my set that was sold to me for less than $90.00. But here is the latest:

EBay Lot: 1390416279, 1959-P, MS65FBL for $107.00 is 143 points.

EBay Lot: 1389738809, 1958-P, MS66FBL for $240.00 is 32 points (this is out of line).

EBay Lot: 1390159575, 1954-S, MS64FBL for $70.00 is 3 points.

EBay Lot: 1390161506, 1955-P, MS65FBL for $70.00 is 41 points.

 

These are just a few of many current samples (with less than 2 days left) on EBay that are close to the numbers that I was paying for my Franklin's. Did I pay too much, I do not know. But, you can see that the points to pricing ratio is all over the map.:p

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I may be mistaken about his being kicked off EBay. It may have been Spooly instead. If I was wrong, I appologise. tongue.gif

 

I try to be polite and respectful of other's opinions even if they disagree with my own.

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You need to provide exactly this kind of information for consideration on the official score review thread, or it will get missed.

 

Arch

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You need to provide exactly this kind of information for consideration on the official score review thread, or it will get missed.

 

You're just trying to bully us into using that thread. Arch is nothing but a bully! smirk.gifsmirk.gifsmirk.gif

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In the meantime, Greg you are a bully.

 

I honestly have no idea why you are so upset at my post. You posted about being upset at the low point value of your coins and I pointed out that they are inexpensive and common coins. Now you are taking your attacks personal. All the while you are ignoring all the proof I have posted more than once.

 

 

You come on this site only to ridicule other people's efforts. You could go back to the other board, where bullying is a way of life, but you got kicked off that site, didn't you (probably for bullying someone over there). I do not know if you have been reinstated and I do not really care.

 

I don't know where you got this information from. I have NEVER been booted from the other site. I am an active member of that site. I post there daily. Nor was I booted from eBay as you mention in a later message. I run auctions there frequently. I'll try to list some Franklins next time so you can bid their true value for me. tongue.gif

 

 

I am not aware that I am having trouble on this site with many other people. If so, I wish that they would let me know. There have been a couple on instances, one of which was another bullying session. The other, I appologised for. You are an immature boy, Greg. You need to hack the chip off your shoulder. My bet is that you are not such a bully in person, so you bring your act over here. If you acted like this in person, someone would straighten you out in a hurry. Sometimes you are funny but this is not one of those times.

 

My post here was not meant to be funny. It was to inform you and others that your MS65FBL Franklin is a common coin. I'm sorry that you have become so filled with anger over me pointing this out. Perhaps you purchased the coin for way too much money and are upset that it has gone down in value? Perhaps you are just uninformed about the market? Whatever the reason, I don't know. All I know is that it is a common and low value coin. My facts back that up. I'm still waiting for your fact. Perhaps you will call that bullying? I think you need to direct your anger at someone else. I am not the cause of your anger. I am only the cause of showing you the actual value of a generic MS65FBL Franklin. If you are angry with me for this, then that is something you will have to take up with your anger management councilor.

 

As for me being a bully in person. I am not. However, I am not a bully on these forums. Blunt perhaps, but I never try to bully anyone. Who here thinks I've bullied them? (EVP and his beloved Mets need not respond). wink.gif

 

 

I am having serious personal problems at the moment and do not have the patience to deal with you now. So, knock off the innuendo (which is your favorite tool) and go bother someone else.

 

Actually, sarcasm is my favorite tool. I rarely use innuendo. I have substantive data to back up this if you would like.

 

 

It is you and not I that ridicules people on this site.

 

I ridicule the fools and people who deserve it - the cheats, the liars, the people who try to deceive others, the people who refuse to learn after asking for help, etc. In your case, all I did was point out that actual value and rarity of the coins you are commenting on. Like I previously stated, I backed up my statements with facts. I responded to your question about "my credentials" with information about my dealings with this market. I have not belittled these coins. I have not attacked you or others for collecting these coins.

 

You said that " have come out and said some things that are not valid and you certainly can not prove." I provided proof for my statements and you chose to ignore it and again attack me personally. You told me to "Let me know when you have data that I can substantiate!" and I did. I'm still waiting for your response to my data.

 

If you have a personal problem with me, feel free to take it to me in a PM. However, if you are going to disagree with my facts, then at least address them with your own facts and remove the personal attacks from your posts.

 

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CDR,

 

This kind of stuff is what NGC wants to see. Completed Teletrade or E-Bay auctions (or Heritage or any other for that matter) where you can see that the market value of a particular piece is higher than the points being given.

 

Pick one coin as your base coin with its market value and scoring, and then compare those others to that piece, and you can make a strong case for getting scores changed.

 

Of course, Arch is a bully and requires you to post it in HIS thread.

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We've known Arch is a bully, and he's a DarkSider and a comic lover to boot. Just look at the way he bashed TJ at the Water Cooler.

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Don't make me open up a can on you, man...

 

whoopss.jpg

 

Arch

The dangerous thing about this product:

What if they get the whoopass and the fill lines mixed up...

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You know, Greg, I do not remember voting for you as Arbiter for this Forum. Maybe I was out that day. I quess that bottom line is that I do not like your sarcasm. I certainly do not deserve it. Maybe you think it is funny, but it really isn't. I am not in the least angry with you. I just think that you lack basic manners and I for one do not intend to be your foil. You have not met any of the criteria that I posted in my ealier reply. I am still waiting for you to sell me some Franklins for $25.00. When are you going to sell them to me, or is this just more of your hot air bluffing?

 

If you are grouping me with Crooks, etc............. I have a perfect right to object. So, please go away. What part of no don't you understand? I am finished with this conversation. However, you get one more attack to twist my words (which is all that you seem to be able to do) and then it ends. But, for heavens sake, try and say something original in this reply, Greg. This is your last chance.:p

Edited by Oldtrader3

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Arch - I find you unoriginal and I want citation for being the first to whip out the Whoopass!!! I'm sniffling now, but am planning on whoopin' yer the next time I'm in the Windy City (if I can still kick that high)! wink.giflaugh.gifblush.giftongue.gifsmile.gifcrazy.gifmad.gifshocked.gifgrin.gifsmirk.gif

 

Great picture, by the way! laugh.gif

 

Hoot

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You have not met any of the criteia that I posted in my ealier reply.

 

shocked.gifshocked.gifshocked.gif In what bizzaro world do you live in? I've addressed EVERY one of your points SEVERAL times and every time you have ignored them and asked me to address them again and again.

 

 

I am still waiting for you to sell me some Franklins for $25.00. When are you going to sell them to me, or is this just more of your hot air bluffing?

 

I'm sorry, but it is not my job to sell them to you at any price. Circulated war nickels are worth 25¢. That does not mean I am willing to sell them to anyone at that price or that I even deal with them. FYI, the only mint state Franklin I have at all is a 53-S with ever so sweet bell lines. laugh.gif And, again FYI, the last time I sold an MS65FBL Franklin on eBay a few months ago, I believe it sold for $22.

 

I posted several links where MS65FBL Franklins were selling in the $25 range. If you would like to purchase them, then I suggest you contact eBay & TeleTrash and put in your $25 bids there. You are sure to win several. However, you'd rather and moan and close your eyes and believe that they are really $150 coins. That's your right. Just stop playing the victim. It doesn't suit you.

 

I honestly think you are a troll or blind. You have ignored everything that has been written (not just by me), you've made personal attacks, and you've played the victim.

 

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What if they get the whoopass and the fill lines mixed up...

 

That's when people like littlewincher and frenchcoinguy are created.

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It's true, it's true! I blatantly stole the concept of blatantly stealing the picture of an actual can of whoopass from this manufacturer.

 

Credit duly given. But now I'm gonna have to open a can on you.

 

whoopss.jpg

 

(laugh)

 

Arch

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There are factors such as a coin selling for $1 that render auctions stats as unreliabel, and this happens all the time. It's not a question of one coin here or their.

 

Teletrade has no pictures and the prices realized are much lower than the accepted value of the coins. Those coins would almost definitely bring more money if purchased in person. The reason for this is the fact that sight unseen bidders tend to give lowball offers. That is generally because it is common knowledge that many dealers dumb thier overgraded junk into sight-unseen auctions.

 

One need to get their pricing info from a collection of different sources. You also need to weed out those ocasional too low or to high prices that come along. It would render the trend inaccurate if you factored in a $2000 beautifully toned example, for instance.

 

Also, just the fact that a coin says one grade on the holder doesn't mean that it is that grade. There are overgraded coins out their. To put this into perspective with the issue at hand. Some of us Franklin collectors actually try to find the nice examples of a given coin for our collections. These are collections for most of us. We but the coin, not the holder. Those overgraded coins shouldn't be in those holders to begin with. The actual MS65FBLs sell for real prices and we get discouraged when our beautiful coins are lumped together with the tones of overgraded mistakes that are out there.

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I don't doubt that most Franklin specialists will emphasize PQ coins in their sets, but you don't focus on the high-end pieces for scoring purposes, you focus on averages.

 

The Teletrade history has legitimate trades of NGC and PCGS certified products. The high is $85, the low is $21, and there is zero rhyme or reason for the pricing history. Of the 41, only 2 had pics, and the one-year average was $45, but the trend is heading lower, not higher.

 

You can't discount Greg's theory just because you believe that these are overgraded.

 

Going for MS-66FBL's, same date, there were 20 lots, ranging from $55 to $190, with the average being $94, 6 of the 20 lots pictured.

 

Now, on to E-Bay -- MS66FBL - High is $790 for a single Reeded Edge monster toned, next highest is $123 going down to $82. MS65FBL is $66 down to $28.

 

Next up, Saint Heritage (lots in 2002) -- 66FBL high is $144 and low is $48 . High for 65FBL is $89 and low is $25.

 

So, a three shop comparison, and the Teletrade and E-Bay prices are favorable to a major coin dealer. A few flukes either direction, but for this piece, Greg's theory holds true.

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I always try to argue a point with Greg, but when it comes down to really exploring what it is he saying he's way more right than he's ever wrong.

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You can be Right without being derogatory and you can be wrong without being called a Dumazz. Just maybe OldTraders point here.

 

What do you think folks ?

 

Signed: Ken

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Hypothetically speeking, If I were to submit to this idea, I don't know if Greg's theory would ring true or not, because the average, according to you is $45. That's is just short of twice the $25-$30 mark that Greg was saying before. (No offense Greg, I'm just making reference to your opinion for the sake of arguement and to illustrate what I'm saying here.) Therefore, the question now at hand is: Do we go by the lowest figures available in this range of data, or do we take an average? I think, to avoid giving too much weight to the extremes, we would have to go with the average.

 

That's the key to this. You don't take the lowest possible price and use it as a rule, you need to find the mean and use it as a rule for determining value. This throws out the idea that the coin at hand is a $25-$30 coin. For, as the data indicates, $25-30 is the low end of the range and therefore the extreme, not the rule.

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I didn't calculate Heritage's average, but I believe it appeared it would be lower on the 65FBL's than Teletrade's average.

 

The $55 66FBL was an aberration at Heritage, but $85 was the normal price at auction at least.

 

Regardless of the outcome, this thread has generated a lot of responses and thinking, even with some mild wink.gif disagreement. I don't remember any other thread on this forum garnering that much interest in a long time, if ever.

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You can be Right without being derogatory and you can be wrong without being called a Dumazz. Just maybe OldTraders point here.

 

I doubt oldtraders3 has a point except on the top of his head. Read my first post (the one that oldtrader3 attacked me for). It is not derogatory at all. It is filled with facts. He just didn't like the facts and refused to listen to them. He is blind to these facts. He is blind to the facts that others have posted. He is just blind. That's his choice. However, if he wants to attack me he better be prepared for me to go at him. He is not. If he wants to dispute the facts, that is fine. However, I provided proof. He provided nothing other than his biased opinion.

 

He still believes his coins are super rare and worth lots of money. All the facts in the world won't change his mind. That is his choice to believe it. Some people believe in the Tooth Fairy. Just don't attack others for proving you wrong.

 

 

What do you think folks ?

 

I think that you would agree with anyone who would disagree with me. That's because you have some vendetta against me. I don't know why - nor do I care.

 

 

Signed: Ken

 

Signing a post that contains your opinion. This is a first for you. Congratulations!

 

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Wow - I go to Vegas for a few days and the place goes to hell in a handbasket! wink.gif

 

This is starting to look like the Anaconda vs Bustman thread!

 

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