PCGS Grades Can Be Taken Away from You for Mechanical Error
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Like many of you I thought a PCGS and NGC grades were a rock solid investment backed by a guarantee. I am learning this may NOT be the case with a PCGS grade.

 

So I thoght I'd warn everyone here that PCGS grades can be taken away from you when PCGS makes a "Mechanical Error". I recently bought a MS68 coin from one of the top auction houses for quite a few thousands of dollars in an older PCGS holder and when I submitted it to the Registry it came back as fairly common MS 67. So I sent in pictures etc and after chasing customer service around for days here is the upshot.

 

PCGS made a "mechanical error" either (a) in the entry of the grade on their records or (b) when they printed the label. But PCGS does not know which it is , so to make up for THEIR mistake they are "allowing" me to send them the coin back at MY EXPENSE (insuance will be about $75) and they will regrade it at MY EXPENSE and determine which is the error.

 

PCGS refuses to answer my questions about the guarantee so I assume it does NOT apply to "mechanical errors". Obvioulsy I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by sending them the coin so that is not going to happen, thus leaving me in limbo with a very expensive non-registerable coin.

 

So before investing thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in a PCGS coin you should know it is a crapshoot. I wonder if NGC can pull the rug out from under your investments for mechanical errors too ?

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Well I think James and Dennis already had a situation similar to yours...

 

James is James_EarlyUS Here on the boards ...He may be able to give some advice.. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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certainly I wouldn't send the coin back to them unless you had everything straightened out. Try writing directly to David Hall or Ron Guth and see what they have to say...if they would give you assurance that you would be compensated financially for the 'mechanical error'.

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I agree that you should contact David Hall or Ron Guth directly and believe chances are excellent that PCGS will treat you fairly.

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Thank you all for replying, I never expected that.

 

I am a lawyer and that is why I am certain that the PCGS agreement will cover them no matter what they decide

 

PCGS' only concern seems to be to correct the record regarding this coin. They could care less about the customer. They don't see a problem. If the coin is a MS68 then it will prove out. If not then I'll have an MS67. Either way the PCGS records will be in harmony and all will be well with the world.

 

But the key point here is PCGS has set up a nice Catch-22 to protect themselves. They wil not tell me what will happen if I resubmit the coin. So they know that no one would resubmit the coin under those circumstances. Until I do resubmit the coin of course I have no claim under any guarantee. So my choice is to have the coin as a MS68 and no claim or maybe have the coin as an MS67 and a "claim" I can pursue uintil Hell freezes over.

 

If I had made a mistake that cost a client money the first words out of my mouth would be "Don't worry. You'll be covered no matter what." PCGS seems to act as if I have a duty to protect them and their reputation at any cost to me. Its clearly a no-win situation and all I can really do is warn people.

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Thank you all for replying, I never expected that.

 

I am a lawyer and that is why I am certain that the PCGS agreement will cover them no matter what they decide

 

PCGS' only concern seems to be to correct the record regarding this coin. They could care less about the customer. They don't see a problem. If the coin is a MS68 then it will prove out. If not then I'll have an MS67. Either way the PCGS records will be in harmony and all will be well with the world.

 

But the key point here is PCGS has set up a nice Catch-22 to protect themselves. They wil not tell me what will happen if I resubmit the coin. So they know that no one would resubmit the coin under those circumstances. Until I do resubmit the coin of course I have no claim under any guarantee. So my choice is to have the coin as a MS68 and no claim or maybe have the coin as an MS67 and a "claim" I can pursue uintil Hell freezes over.

 

If I had made a mistake that cost a client money the first words out of my mouth would be "Don't worry. You'll be covered no matter what." PCGS seems to act as if I have a duty to protect them and their reputation at any cost to me. Its clearly a no-win situation and all I can really do is warn people.

If you explain the situation to David or Ron, I am confident that they will understand the problem quite clearly, even if the person you already spoke to did not.

 

Also, in the vast number of cases, "mechanical error" would not apply to the assigned grade of the coin, but instead, to things such as an input error for the date, denomination, mint-mark, etc. In order for a grading company to have a legitimate out due to a "mechanical error", the error should be one which a person could easily detect. If an obviously heavily circulated coin was mistakenly given an MS68 grade, that would be a legitimate mechanical error. On the other hand, an MS67 coin being given an MS68 grade would not.

 

Try to stay (or get) calm - it should work out. They would not want the negative publicity that would come from their not treating you fairly.

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Registered is the ONLY way to go in this instance.

Make sure you have Clear and Accurate pictures of the coin denoting any UNIQUE features of the coin - I think they will handle the situation quickly and descreetly. Speak to the BIG dogs they as they will be the only ones to make this type of decision on $ or Replacement

 

Good Luck and Keep us informed ...

 

I had a issue with NGC and it was handled EXPERTLY and with Expediantly.

I would hope they would do this next door too

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Like many of you I thought a PCGS and NGC grades were a rock solid investment backed by a guarantee. I am learning this may NOT be the case with a PCGS grade.

 

So I thoght I'd warn everyone here that PCGS grades can be taken away from you when PCGS makes a "Mechanical Error". I recently bought a MS68 coin from one of the top auction houses for quite a few thousands of dollars in an older PCGS holder and when I submitted it to the Registry it came back as fairly common MS 67. So I sent in pictures etc and after chasing customer service around for days here is the upshot.

 

PCGS made a "mechanical error" either (a) in the entry of the grade on their records or (b) when they printed the label. But PCGS does not know which it is , so to make up for THEIR mistake they are "allowing" me to send them the coin back at MY EXPENSE (insuance will be about $75) and they will regrade it at MY EXPENSE and determine which is the error.

 

PCGS refuses to answer my questions about the guarantee so I assume it does NOT apply to "mechanical errors". Obvioulsy I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by sending them the coin so that is not going to happen, thus leaving me in limbo with a very expensive non-registerable coin.

 

So before investing thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in a PCGS coin you should know it is a crapshoot. I wonder if NGC can pull the rug out from under your investments for mechanical errors too ?

 

Out of curiosity, have you post this across the street...?

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Question: what are you doing buying an MS68 from auction if you don't know whether or not it's an MS68??? Someone should have screened that coin for you and agreed with the grade on the holder.

 

One way or another, between PCGS and the auction house, you'll be made whole.

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Question: what are you doing buying an MS68 from auction if you don't know whether or not it's an MS68??? Someone should have screened that coin for you and agreed with the grade on the holder.

 

One way or another, between PCGS and the auction house, you'll be made whole.

I agree with TDN...Statement 1 and 2 thumbsup2.gif

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Question: what are you doing buying an MS68 from auction if you don't know whether or not it's an MS68??? Someone should have screened that coin for you and agreed with the grade on the holder.

 

One way or another, between PCGS and the auction house, you'll be made whole.

Bruce, I saw nothing in his post to indicate that Redmon didn't know whether the coin was a 68 or not, or that he didn't view the coin in person (or have someone do so on his behalf). You might be correct about your assumptions, but you might not. Either way, many, if not most people can't distinguish a 67 from a 68, including graders at major grading companies (on a consistent basis, at least).

 

Additionally, based upon the information provided, I don't see the auction house as a viable means for the buyer to be made whole.

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The entire point of having a TPG is so the customer doesn't have to be able to distinguish between a 67 and a 68. Obviously there are exceptions, but if it were the norm, why even have a grade guarantee?

 

Authenticity is the other valuable service TPGs provide. Some think that TPGs should only guarantee authenticity and not the grade, but that's not the case here.

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Additionally, based upon the information provided, I don't see the auction house as a viable means for the buyer to be made whole.

 

I disagree. The bidder purchased an MS68. If it's an MS67 with a mechanical error, then there was no 'meeting of the minds' and the sale should be null and void.

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Additionally, based upon the information provided, I don't see the auction house as a viable means for the buyer to be made whole.

 

I disagree. The bidder purchased an MS68. If it's an MS67 with a mechanical error, then there was no 'meeting of the minds' and the sale should be null and void.

 

Unless the auction house KNEW that the coin was really a MS67 due to a "mechanical error" (that is they sold it knowing that PCGS would not honor the coin at it's stated grade), there would be no liability on the part of the auction house. I'm pretty sure that almost all the major auction house exclude any grade guarantee for 3rd party grading in their terms and conditions, but indicate that the buyer relies exclusively on the TPG company for any grade guarantee.

 

I'm quite sure that Redmont knows all about detrimental reliance and he would be able to prevail if he chose to pursue the matter.

 

However, like Mark Feld, I believe if he talks to Ron Guth or David Hall, it will be resolved to his satisfaction.

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Well I think James and Dennis already had a situation similar to yours...

 

James is James_EarlyUS Here on the boards ...He may be able to give some advice.. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

The best advice I can give is: proceed carefully, and document EVERYTHING.

 

Here is the link being alluded to:

 

Norweb Hibernia

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6,822 posts
Well I think James and Dennis already had a situation similar to yours...

 

James is James_EarlyUS Here on the boards ...He may be able to give some advice.. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

The best advice I can give is: proceed carefully, and document EVERYTHING.

 

Here is the link being alluded to:

 

Norweb Hibernia

I just reread the artical James and am STILL amaized...

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Well I think James and Dennis already had a situation similar to yours...

 

James is James_EarlyUS Here on the boards ...He may be able to give some advice.. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

The best advice I can give is: proceed carefully, and document EVERYTHING.

 

Here is the link being alluded to:

 

Norweb Hibernia

I just reread the artical James and am STILL amazed...

 

I hadn't read that before... WOW. That sucks major elephant *spoon*

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The problem I have with them calling this a mechanical error is that apparently it is recorded in their computer that it is a MS-67. Now the label is printed by the computer and it uses the information stored there to print what is on the label. Now it IS possible for a mechanical error to occur and it sends a 7 to the printer but the printer but the printer prints an 8, but it would be pretty darn rare. (It can happen, I've seen errors like that occur.) But the grade is printed TWICE on the label and for the same mechanical error to happen twice to the same piece of information seems to me to be astronomically unlikely. (If the error was the grader putting 68 in the computer when he should have put 67 and the label printed what was in the computer, it would still say 68 in the computer because who would have changed it? And it would have come back 68 for the registry. If they put in 67 when it should have been 68 then we have to believe two seperate identical mechanical errors occuring with the printing of the label.) You say this is an old PCGS holder. How old? A rattler possibly? If so are you sure the holder is real?

 

And Newmismatist is right. Most if not all of the big auction houses have in their Terms that disagreements over the grade on TPG holdered coins are a matter between the buyer and the grading service or something similar. They also have language stating that since grading is subjective and others may disagree, that the grades listed by the authion house are merely opinins and a disagreement by the bidder as to the grade is not a valid reason for a return. The bidder should examine the lot and bid based in HIS SOLE DISCRETION. Superior goes as far as to state that coins graded by TPG's are not returnable for any reason. (I haven't looked at the other houses but I would not be surprised to find a similar no return policy with them as well.

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