HAVE YOU SEEN THIS EFFECT ON A LINCOLN CENT OR ANY OTHER COIN?

[WAVYSTEPS2003-migration]

I am trying to gather information on a certain type of error / doubling that has occurred on more than a few Lincoln cents. Mostly seen on the reverse, it appears as "tails" that come off letters and o/or designs. It has also appeared on the obverse mostly on the lettering of LIBERTY.

 

 

 

 

 

If you have seen any of these "tails" can you please post the date and a brief description of what you see? Thanks

 

Wavysteps2003

[errorist]

Yes it happens with extremly worn out dies as the metal flows through the worn out sections of it when struck.Beautifull example of it.

[James_OldeTowne]

I believe these are classic signs of die stress, frequently seen on early type. Take a look at some AU-ish bust halves sometime, and note how as die wear progresses, the stars get drawn to the edge of the coin, with those exacty types of stress fractures.

 

James

[WAVYSTEPS2003-migration]

Hi errorist and James - Wanted to thank you for your observations, however, I think that the die condition may not play into this effect. Below are two more examples, not as dramatic, that ocurred on LEDS to EMDS, 2006 Lincoln cents. The first example shows very slight tails to the west while the other shows tails to the northwest

 

Another factor that was not mentioned is that the angle of these tails is more often or than not to the northwest in directiuon and the 1994, 1996, and 1998 examples shown are an exact matchin as far as the angles of the "tails" are concerned. Would this happen from die fatigue?

 

There is something else also; the 1995 example shown is a wavy step with fluting lines extending into the stylobate under columns # 11 and 12, in the exact same direction as the tails on the EPU (actually, this example has movement in two directions, north and south on the EPU).

 

 

Hopefully, with all these clues, I will find the answer to the exact cause of this anomoly. Again thank you for your time and posts, they are appreciated.

 

WAVYSTEPS2003

[cpm9ball]

Where is Billy? Billy knows everything about Lincolns! I prefer Dodges.

 

Chris

[WAVYSTEPS2003-migration]

Hi Chris - Billy Crawford believes that this effect is caused by cleaning the die. This possibility and any man made cause for this effect has been almost enterly ruled out. The duplication of the angle on these tails, during a twelve year span, as shown on the examples of the 1994, 1996, 1998 and 2006 EX-002 would lead to a machinery fault if anything. Also, why would a LEDS - EMDS die need to be cleaned so harshly? However, it is just another piece to this puzzle.

 

I thank you for your post, it is appreciated.

 

WAVYSTEPS2003

[RGT]

Die wear typically causes lines in a radial direction. These lines all seem to be parallel and always in the same direction. Unfortunately, I have no theories as to what would cause this effect.

[Die Varieties]

"Hi Chris - Billy Crawford believes that this effect is caused by cleaning the die. This possibility and any man made cause for this effect has been almost enterly ruled out. The duplication of the angle on these tails, during a twelve year span, as shown on the examples of the 1994, 1996, 1998 and 2006 EX-002 would lead to a machinery fault if anything. Also, why would a LEDS - EMDS die need to be cleaned so harshly? However, it is just another piece to this puzzle."

 

Back up that statement -- show me the evidence that it is not from cleaning the die?

 

You also mention "duplication" on the same angles for a twelve year span. I have many examples of these going in various directions other than just what you have shown in this thread.

 

Prove me wrong.

[WAVYSTEPS2003-migration]

Normally when we see an abraided die, whether it is from cleaning or the removal of a die clash, it appears as a group of fine lines that are random and encompass all directions. The shallow part of the die, in most cases, (in the bays and under / over the Memorial building) is the only effected area. Occasionally the whole reverse (and very rarely the obverse) will have these abrade lines on the entire face, however, NOT on any of these abraded lines will appear on the design elements, for on the die, the design elements are recessed. Now if you look at the five examples below, the "tails" atop of the columns are actually in one of the deeper parts of the reverse die. What special tool would reach into the recess and put a precisely angled groove on each column top? Also notice that on example 1998-003F there is an angled "tail" from the top of the right post; this in fact is the deepest recessed area of the reverse die. Also consider that this angled "tail" from the post is at the same angle as the "tails" from the columns. Another recessed area that has been effected is the top of the cornice, which is angled in the same direction as the "tails" from the top of the posts. Yes, there are "tails" on the shallow parts of the die, but they match the same angle as the "tails" in the recesses and thus are caused by the same action. What knd of cleaning can cause this grooving in both surfaced and recesses areas?

 

I too have different examples of "tails" at different angles; 7 in a northwest direction; 4 in a west direction, 3 in south direction, 1 in a north direction and 1 in a northeast direction. The three directional groups that contain more than one example have "tails" that are within a few degrees of each other in that group. These examples cover a twelve year span and for the angles to be replicated precisely, the cleaning would have to be preformed by lockset machinery. However, there is a fault in this line of think which is brouught up next.

 

In all cases, both on the obverse and reverse dies that are effected by this anomoly, there is never a full coverage of the die face with "tails". In most examples portions of "UNITED STATES of AMERICA", EPU, the upper areas of the columns, the cornice and the roof are the designs effected. I have only one example that shows a single errant "tail" from ONE CENT and that one line might not be connected to this anomoly. If this is a machine done cleaning, why just those selected areas? Why not full coverage of the die?

 

These are the reasons why I have ALMOST ruled out die cleaning for the cause of these "tails". A more pausible cause for this anomoly might be hub to die movement at the end of the hubbing process which may very well include wavy steps. And that is the reason for this post, to gather information for there are some pieces of the puzzle on this anomoly that are still missing. And of course, the more information that you have the better the analysis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wish to thank all of you for looking at this post and I of course will appreciate any information that you might have on this particular anomoly. Every little bit helps.

 

WAVYSTEPS2003

[errorist]

To me it looks like a die that was not annealed properly and became more brittle for what ever reason or the die became more brittle do to overheating and caused the die to chip in those areas.

[Die Varieties]

"Normally when we see an abraided die, whether it is from cleaning or the removal of a die clash, it appears as a group of fine lines that are at random and encompass all directions on the face of the die (in the bays and under / over the Memorial building. Occasionally the whole reverse (andf very rarely the obverse) will have these abrade lines on the entire face, however, NOT on any of the design elements, for on the die, the design elements are recessed. now if you look at the five examples below. The "tails" atop of the columns are actually in one of the deeper parts of the reverse die. What special tool would reach into the recess and put a precisely angled groove on each column top? Also notice that on example 1998-003F there is an angled "tail" from the top of the right post; this in fact is the deepest recessed area of the reverse die. Also consider that this angled "tail" from the post is at the same angle as the "tails" from the columns. Another recessed area that has been effected is the top of the cornice, which is angled in the same direction as the "tails" from the top of the posts.

 

I too have different examples of "tails" at different angles; 7 in a northwest direction; 4 in a west direction, 3 in south direction, 1 in a north direction and 1 in a northeast direction. The three directional groups that contain more than one example have "tails" that are within a few degrees of each other in that group. These examples cover a twelve year span and for the angles to be replicated precisely, the cleaning would have to be preformed by lockset machinery. However, there is a fault in this line of think which is brouught up next.

 

In all cases, both on the obverse and reverse dies that are effected by this anomoly, there is never a full coverage of the die face with "tails". In most examples portions of "UNITED STATES of AMERICA", EPU, the upper areas of the columns, the cornice and the roof are the designs effected. I have only one example that shows a single errant "tail" from ONE CENT and that one line might not be connected to this anomoly. If this is a machine done cleaning, why just those selected areas? Why not full coverage?

 

These are the reasons why I have ALMOST ruled out die cleaning for the cause of these tails. A more pausible cause for this anomoly might be hub to die movement at the end of the hubbing process which may very well include wavy steps. And that is the reason for this post, to gather information for there are some pieces of the puzzle on this anomoly that are still missing. And of course, the more information that you have the better the analysis."

 

I can appreciate what your saying but you have my viewpoint of "cleaning the die" confused with "abrading the die." Each is two different things.

 

I have extensively examined 3 coins. All 3 coins are dated 2005 Lincoln cents and all 3 coins came from a solid BU bank-wrapped roll obtained from my local bank.

 

Coin #1: Is a normal struck 2005 cent. No problems whatsoever with the coin. In my examination of the coin I noticed there is a prominent die gouge located at the lower curvature of the letter "S" of TRUST on the obverse protruding outward into the field. No big deal -- so its got a die marker. Just like billions of other coins in all denominations have die markers.

 

Coin #2: This coin has the exact same die gouge on the obverse as Coin #1 described above. However, the reverse has almost all of the design and lettering elements missing due to being struck-thru some type of foreign-matter (could be grease, gunk, whatever, struck-thru something).

 

Coin #3: This coin also has the exact same die gouge on the obverse as Coin #1 and Coin #2 described above. However, on this coins reverse it now doesn't have the struck-thru problem but rather exhibits the design elements and lettering fully raised as a normal coin. But -- now those design elements and lettering also exhibit the same type of lines extending on the entire reverse much like in your photos.

 

So -- what could be the scenario? Coin #1 is a no problem 2005 cent. Then some type of foreign-matter clogs the reverse die during its production run. This now gives us Coin #2. This in itself is not unusual since we can find quite a few struck-thru coins in any denomination. No big deal. Finally, we have Coin #3 that is the same dies as Coin #1 and Coin #2 but now the reverse exhibits these long extending lines from the inner (incuse design elements & lettering).

 

What I believe happened was the mint press operator wiped (cleaned) the reverse die to remove the extensive foreign-material clogging up the die. What the exact cleaning solvent contained I don't know. But -- venturing a guess, it could have had some type of acid wipe to ensure getting out all the clogged material that was deeply recessed on that reverse die. This now gives us Coin #3 with those extending lines.

 

This "cleaning the die," would also provide the answers that it can happen anytime during a production run. Whether at EDS or MDS or LDS or so-forth. This is why one can come across these extending lines on various die states of a coin.

 

Going another step further -- this "cleaning the die," can also explain why these extending lines from the design elements and/or lettering can be radiating in different directions from coin to coin as well as how much it affects that die (obverse or reverse). Each case depends on which direction he/she wiped the culprit die as well as most likely the degree (solution content) of that solvent used at that particular time.

[WAVYSTEPS2003-migration]

Hello Errorist - I would think that die chipping would be more random than what we are seeing here. I know it is hard to visualize what is happening to the whole coin face without seeing it, but the series of "tails" on a particular die is at the same angles to each other through out the design. In other words, the tails on top of the columns are at the same angles as the "tails" on STATES, etc, Would this happen if the die were stressed and if so why would it be so precise? And to add to it all, these angles are not random by year, but are precise to each other on certain years.

 

Thank you for your post.

 

WAVYSTEPS2003

[errorist]

I could see it happening on the master die during the hubbing process. I just don't see this happening on the working die it would spread out in all diretions due to the extreme pressure of striking.