About Bernard von NotHous 1 1

[Just Bob]

On 7/14/2021 at 10:03 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

... I shall try to adopt Just Bob's approach and Be Nice and suggest we all just try to get along.

Although I will admit to being nice, I don't recall ever having suggested that "we all just try to get along." In fact, I do not feel that way at all. There are definitely posters on here, past and present, with whom I did/do not get along, and there are undoubtedly some who feel the same about me. I have no problem calling out, arguing with, chastising, ignoring, or refusing to respond to anyone who comes on here and tries to push misinformation, lead newbies astray, act stupid, or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves. And, I certainly expect others to do the same to me.

 

[numisport]

On 7/13/2021 at 3:03 AM, Conder101 said:

Problem was it isn't possible to make a coin per the rules, because the rules forbid you from making "coins" intended to pass as money.  And NotHous's "coins" were intended to be used as money.  Or at least some of them were.

Applicable law Title 18 Chapter 25 Sec 486

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

NotHous was not authorized by law, he did make "coins" of gold and silver, of an original design, intended to be used as current money.  It is legal to make such item only for use within your own "sphere of influence" because then they are a token and not a coin.  

How is a Bitcoin legal ?

[Henri Charriere]

Back on track...  

OK, just to sum up. Cosby is out. Joe Exotic, contrary to what many believe, will be re-adjudicated, re-sentenced and returned to custody. I think the Court's decision to reinstate "take-a-bullet-for-T" Cohen's home confinement was courageous and Sheldon Silver's release and return to custody was cruel (and I don't particularly like him for excellent reasons) which leaves us with the matter of BvH.

I will have to study the case in detail but have no problem with a request for extraordinary post-conviction relief.  Now, if you had made the same case for Tommy Thompson of S.S. Central America infamy, I would respectfully pass. In this regard, I believe you were right in equating, as unseemly as it sounds, gold and its pursuit, with pure evil. You remain an enduring enigma...  🐓

[VKurtB]

On 7/15/2021 at 11:46 AM, numisport said:

How is a Bitcoin legal ?

It shouldn’t be, and if civil governments could get their mitts on the creators, I wouldn’t want to be them. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/15/2021 at 10:06 AM, Conder101 said:

He raised it when the price of silver got too high.  Originally they were $5, then $10, then $20.  I think his last ones were $25.  He had to keep raising the face value of hi "inflation proof" money.

I don't consider him to have been a counterfeiter, but he WAS in violation of Sec 486, which I guess would technically make him a "crook".  But he was harmless and probably should have been ignored.  Once they couldn't ignore him the probation sentence was a good choice.  No need to lock him up.  (No I don't want him crucified.  )

Most people don’t know that the circumstances under which a judge can override a jury’s verdict are extremely limited. When the judge sees an obvious legal infirmity in a case, he can do a “directed verdict” of Not Guilty. But once that case gets back to the jury room, his main tool of choice is going really low on sentence. Judges are seldom allowed to interfere with the finders of what we incorrectly call fact. Juries are made up of mostly really really dumb people. It’s one of our legal system’s original sins.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/15/2021 at 10:45 PM, VKurtB said:

Juries are made up of mostly really really dumb people....

The average defendant in NYC is never going to really get a jury of his peers. All you have to do is look at the sources upon which the courts rely to form a jury pool. I served on a grand jury and when I requested the prosecutor ask the witness [police officer working undercover] the reason why a car in which drugs were found was stopped, I was basically told it was none of the [GJ's] business, hence the oft-quoted one-time Chief Justice of NY's Court of Appeals observation that a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich, if asked to. A grand jury lacks the standing to challenge lab reports and the sworn testimony of police officers. We sat all day for weeks rubber-stamping everything presented to us as "facts."  If the O.J. affair proved anything it's that with adequate resources, a defendant can retain counsel and the investigators needed to challenge evidence, interview witnesses and raise a reasonable doubt. [In a 25th anniversary retrospective of the 1994 O.J. case, several jurors conceded the acquittal was retaliation for the failure to convict in the 1991 Rodney King case. There are Rules that attorneys must observe in county, state, state appeals, federal district, federal circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court.  When you come right down to it, jurors or no different from you or me and average everyday people with their own likes, dislikes, prejudices and agendas.

[RWB]

All the slippery rationalizations do not change facts: he is a crook, a fraud, and a counterfeiter.

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2021 at 6:18 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The average defendant in NYC is never going to really get a jury of his peers. All you have to do is look at the sources upon which the courts rely to form a jury pool. I served on a grand jury and when I requested the prosecutor ask the witness [police officer working undercover] the reason why a car in which drugs were found was stopped, I was basically told it was none of the [GJ's] business, hence the oft-quoted one-time Chief Justice of NY's Court of Appeals observation that a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich, if asked to. A grand jury lacks the standing to challenge lab reports and the sworn testimony of police officers. We sat all day for weeks rubber-stamping everything presented to us as "facts."  If the O.J. affair proved anything it's that with adequate resources, a defendant can retain counsel and the investigators needed to challenge evidence, interview witnesses and raise a reasonable doubt. [In a 25th anniversary retrospective of the 1994 O.J. case, several jurors conceded the acquittal was retaliation for the failure to convict in the 1991 Rodney King case. There are Rules that attorneys must observe in county, state, state appeals, federal district, federal circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court.  When you come right down to it, jurors or no different from you or me and average everyday people with their own likes, dislikes, prejudices and agendas.

I know that most trial juries are drawn from Driver’s License files in Pennsylvania counties, while the federal trial courts use voter registration. I have no idea yet what Alabama uses, unless maybe people who are observed buying excessive numbers of white sheets.

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB  When NYC criminal and supreme courts were in operation, pre-pandemic, mention was made of drawing jurors from more sources due to a lackluster response from those called.  I don't know what if anything was done.  🐓 

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2021 at 6:35 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB  When NYC criminal and supreme courts were in operation, pre-pandemic, mention was made of drawing jurors from more sources due to a lackluster response from those called.  I don't know what if anything was done.  🐓 

I was once called for a trial in 1986 in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. I was the jury foreman. We had a meth case with conspiracy charges, and the defendants were two brothers. We convicted one brother on one count, and acquitted on every other count. When we first went into deliberations, seven wanted to convict on all counts. Within a day, we were down to conviction on only one. I worked them hard, Henry Fonda style.
 

I’ve been called for jury duty three times since, and I have a foolproof method of not getting picked - during voir dire I profess my belief in jury nullification as a fundamental American right. End of any chance to be picked.

Edited July 18, 2021 by VKurtB

[coinman_23885]

Why would any president care to pardon him? 

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2021 at 8:30 PM, coinman_23885 said:

Why would any president care to pardon him? 

Fundamental lack of justice. That was pretty much the ONLY basis for pardons before Billy C. did it for corrupt friends on the way out the door.

Edited July 18, 2021 by VKurtB

[coinman_23885]

He had his due process. He plainly violated the law. The statute violated and the policy behind it are sound, serving legitimate government interests. There weren’t any extenuating circumstances. 

[coinman_23885]

I also haven’t seen where he accepted responsibility and remorse for his actions either. He was only given a slap on the wrist. I see no injustice or reason for clemency. It’s not like the colonial days when counterfeiting was a capital offense.

Edited July 18, 2021 by coinman_23885

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2021 at 8:44 PM, coinman_23885 said:

He had his due process. He plainly violated the law. The statute violated and the policy behind it are sound, serving legitimate government interests. There weren’t any extenuating circumstances. 

If that’s true, then why did the government return all the Liberty coins and currency to those people from whom they were confiscated? They don’t do that for confiscated counterfeits.

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2021 at 8:53 PM, coinman_23885 said:

I also haven’t seen where he accepted responsibility and remorse for his actions either. He was only given a slap on the wrist. I see no injustice.

The blind are obviously not required to see.

[coinman_23885]

It is within the government’s discretion. Check out 18 USC 489.

[coinman_23885]

“The blind are obviously not required to see.”

You are the one who said you were going to be an advocate for him. If you cannot even respond with an articulate response that addresses the considerations/concerns raised in this thread, how are you going to “help” him obtain a pardon?

Edited July 18, 2021 by coinman_23885

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2021 at 9:07 PM, coinman_23885 said:

“The blind are obviously not required to see.”

You are the one who said you were going to be an advocate for him. If you cannot even respond with an articulate response that addresses the considerations/concerns raised in this thread, how are you going to “help” him obtain a pardon?

He deserves to not be subject to the normal disqualifications of a felony conviction, such as, in most states including my new one, but not my original one, the right to vote. The coins are now openly being bought and sold, another admission by the government that the prosecution was erroneous. Counterfeits may not legally change hands.  Title may not be transferred. This is even clearer than the Carr situation. This one HAS been litigated and the government has backed away from the outcome in every way other than removing the felony conviction. It stands today as a logical internal legal contradiction. By the way, unlike Pennsylvania state pardons, remorse or taking responsibility is NOT a prerequisite of federal pardons.  
 

By the way, we’re he a Pennsylvanian, Bernie would have never even TEMPORARILY lost his right to vote. Only INCARCERATED people, convicted of a felony, lose access to the absentee ballot. Their registrations are NOT canceled.  

Edited July 18, 2021 by VKurtB

[coinman_23885]

I never said that there was a prerequisite as the President has broad discretion in deciding to grant pardons. The Constitution only excepts cases of impeachment. Most presidential pardons in practice, however, are managed by the pardon attorney who will evaluate each petition for the merits of clemency. One of the factors considered is remorse and acceptance of responsibility. 

[coinman_23885]

It also doesn’t follow logically that the federal government believes that the verdict was erroneous. It has admitted no such thing nor has there been a change in position. It returned the items to keep the people who purchased his wares from losing their money without remedy. Most counterfeiters aren’t as prolific he was.

 The government could  also reasonably believe his wares to be of low risk of abuse or fraud in light of the publicity the trial generated. The government didn’t like competition in striking coinage. It decided to stop him. Mission accomplished. He is no longer violating the law, arguably suggesting that conviction has continuing deterrent value.

[Henri Charriere]

@coinman_23885

I believe different factors are considered for each of the forms of Executive clemency.

A reprieve can be a matter of life or death and may well pivot on ineffective assistance of counsel or prosecutorial misconduct resulting in a wrongful conviction, possible exoneration and compensatory and punitive damages.

Next up, commutation of sentence for the purposes of making a prisoner eligible for discretionary parole release. Here, I would argue insight, maturity, remorse and acceptance of responsibility are key.  But what if the convicted felon is innocent?  Because the relief sought is extraordinary, as it well ought to be, to be eligible you must have served a minimum term of imprisonment and have exhausted all your avenues of appeal.  BvH never served a day in jail [unless one were to consider six months of house arrest the equivalent of being confined to a gaol].

Remission of fine(s) N/A. The matter of restitution has already been addressed.

That leaves us with pardons of which there are several types. Bypassing the usual route, submission of an application to the USDOJ, President Ford took the Iiberty of granting ex-President Nixon a "full and unconditional pardon."  If you were to review, as I had at one time, the kinds of pardons granted, to whom and under what circumstances, you would frankly marvel at the array of pitiful offenses committed many decades ago and the specific relief from disabilities sought. The Attorney-General of the U.S., the principal law enforcement officer, was imprisoned in the wake of Watergate. The Chief Judge of the NY State Court of Appeals, the state's highest, was also imprisoned. These offenders lost their licenses to practice law. The deterrent value of which you speak is minimal in a case involving an individual few, including myself, had ever heard of.  If we were talking about violent intractable repeat offenders, that's another matter entirely. But we are talking about a relatively small matter in the grand scheme of things.  Letters are routinely sent to parole and pardon authorities. If the sum total of what I have read is accurate, the Hon. VKurtB is only asking the membership to acquaint themselves with the essential facts and submit what amounts to a personal statement in support of a petition which BvH or his advisor can submit on his behalf for the particular relief from disability sought. I do not know what prompted his interest, or furthered it, but VKurtB strikes me as being a straight arrow.  The only enduring mystery is why the learned RWB remains adamantly opposed to what amounts to a mere formality at this juncture. Let us not mistake cereal killers, or those who are fond of consuming breakfast food, with serial killers. At age 70, I dislike scammers -- I call them scamsters -- just as much as the next guy, but there comes a time to stop beating a dead horse. That time is long past.  🐓

P.S.  Would I consider a pardon for Tommy Thompson of S.S. CENTRAL AMERICA infamy?  No, not yet. He crossed a line.

[World Colonial]

Anyone who confuses a liberty dollar for USD is a insufficiently_thoughtful_person.  @VKurtB stated it above I believe and I agree with him.  It's not anyone else's obligation to protect a insufficiently_thoughtful_person from their own ignorance or stupidity and this has nothing to do with me being a collector, as even non-collectors should be able to notice such an obvious difference.

The best explanation for why he was charged is that the US government won't tolerate any challenge to their monopoly and used that woman attempting to deposit her "coins" as an excuse to do it.

In other words, my explanation is that he was charged with a political crime, not a real one.

[Alex in PA.]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:03 AM, World Colonial said:

the US government won't tolerate any challenge to their monopoly

How true.    

[Hoghead515]

On 7/17/2021 at 7:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I know that most trial juries are drawn from Driver’s License files in Pennsylvania counties, while the federal trial courts use voter registration. I have no idea yet what Alabama uses, unless maybe people who are observed buying excessive numbers of white sheets.

Here where I live they use voter registration for all trial juries. 

[coinman_23885]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:03 AM, World Colonial said:

Anyone who confuses a liberty dollar for USD is a insufficiently_thoughtful_person.  @VKurtB stated it above I believe and I agree with him.  It's not anyone else's obligation to protect a insufficiently_thoughtful_person from their own ignorance or stupidity and this has nothing to do with me being a collector, as even non-collectors should be able to notice such an obvious difference.

The best explanation for why he was charged is that the US government won't tolerate any challenge to their monopoly and used that woman attempting to deposit her "coins" as an excuse to do it.

In other words, my explanation is that he was charged with a political crime, not a real one.

The government didn’t need an excuse. While one of the theories was based on him attempting  to circulate his currency, another was based purely on similarity in motifs, legends, inscriptions, etc., to U.S. coins.  Whether the similarity was sufficient to violate the statute is a question for a jury or judge sitting as a fact finder. (Ironically I would have ruled against the government with respect to the similarity argument.) He had his due process and lost  that issue. That is the risk various individuals take when they attempt to play coin god and strike their own coinage.

As for the law, the Constitution plainly grants Congress the power to establish weights and measures, coin money, regulate value thereof, regulate commerce, punish counterfeiting, and all implied powers necessary to effect those enumerated powers. Even the states are barred from producing their own coins/currency. Most of these provisions are reactions to problems that arose under the Articles of Confederation where multiple states/entities performing governmental functions created chaos and arguably instability. The federal government has used its powers to establish a monopoly (logical given that coining money has historically been a governmental function) to provide stability to one national currency to facilitate commerce. The government has enacted laws using these powers which Von Nothaus violated. He was very much convicted of a “real” crime.

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:06 PM, coinman_23885 said:

The federal government has used its powers to establish a monopoly (logical given that coining money has historically been a governmental function) to provide stability to one national currency to facilitate commerce.

I agree with this proposition. But what do you say to people like former “dealer of the year” and now frequent author Patrick Heller who repeatedly writes that governments and money should be utterly separated? Yes, I think it’s an insane idea too,  but he’s not kidding, and deadly serious, and he has enough of a positive reputation to be all over Numismatic News’ pages for what seems like decades.

[Henri Charriere]

No one disputes a crime was committed but we are way past arrest, conviction and sentencing. The only matter brought before us by a member is whether or not you would be willing to support an application for Executive clemency, to-wit a pardon for relief from disabilities..

I think the matter reasonable to consider in light of spectacular crimes like those Bernard Madoff was convicted of for which he was sentenced to a 150-year term of imprisonment which involved untold numbers of individuals and entities with losses upwards of $65 billion.

[Alex in PA.]

On 7/17/2021 at 7:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I know that most trial juries are drawn from Driver’s License files in Pennsylvania counties,

Did you know that in Alaska one is selected for jury duty based on the size of his/her rifle barrel?  Small bores for Misdemeanors and larger bores for Felonies.  It's alfully hard to get juries for Misdemeanor trials.    

[coinman_23885]

On 7/18/2021 at 3:17 PM, VKurtB said:

I agree with this proposition. But what do you say to people like former “dealer of the year” and now frequent author Patrick Heller who repeatedly writes that governments and money should be utterly separated? Yes, I think it’s an insane idea too,  but he’s not kidding, and deadly serious, and he has enough of a positive reputation to be all over Numismatic News’ pages for what seems like decades.

I think there should be open discussions about monetary policy. If a change is needed, it should be effected through legislation.

FWIW, I wouldn’t have prosecuted Von Nothaus if I was the prosecutor as I don’t and didn’t see him as a threat even though I think he is in violation of the law. I do think the policy behind government monopoly of money is sound. The purpose of my post was to point out that executive pardons usually require pretty compelling reasons as the remedy is sparing used in a relative sense. Arguing with sound government policy isn’t going to go very far. Accepting responsibility and acknowledging mistake  while acknowledging the need for discussions about monetary policy are likely to be more fruitful. Of course even then the risk is real that it will fall on deaf ears.