There are "coin dealers" and there are the few expert sellers. Should these high-knowledge people have a new nomen?
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Posted (edited)

We all know there are a small number of coin dealers whose knowledge and expertise is at the top of the field. Yet, we lump them under the same tired rubric "coin dealer." Maybe those top coin sellers should have a new title such as "croupier," or "provisioner," or "purveyor," or "master."

Edited by RWB
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Well, we already call small-time dealers "vest-pocket" dealers. 

If you come up with a new name, you have to decide who qualifies. And then there's hurt feelings of people who think they should be top dogs, but who aren't. 

Honestly, what I would really like to see would be some sort of professional qualification. Kind of like Wine has the "Masters of Wine" program, to both educate and certify that these individuals are top of the game. 

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Define the criteria and possibly have a couple different levels. Experience (years) may be allowed in lieu of certain criteria. This would be a massive undertaking and somehow agreed upon by the professional organizations (and Sport Writers -- JOKE). Who would lead such an effort? The ANA??? And it's time to vote.

 

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57 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Honestly, what I would really like to see would be some sort of professional qualification. Kind of like Wine has the "Masters of Wine" program, to both educate and certify that these individuals are top of the game. 

What purpose would this serve and how do you envision this would operate? 

Most professional certifications and designations have the effect of making it more difficult for new entrants to compete against incumbents (the equivalent of a medieval trade guild) and duping an ignorant public with a false sense of confidence. (For the record, I have three for my profession.)

I consider certification and professional designation requirements in the current labor market to be one of if not the worst developments in my adult lifetime. 

It needlessly makes it more difficult to enter or change job fields or start an independent business.  It's a gold mine for those who are sanctioned to grant the designation and the subsequently required CPE (a total scam if there ever was one) but that's a different thing entirely.

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I was thinking along more casual lines, but the other path is OK, too.

:)

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What about Exalted Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Double Eagles?

 

Coin dealer is just fine for me.  After a brief interaction, it's usually apparent if the person is a coin dealer/numismatist or coin dealer/salesman.  Just my opinion

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4 hours ago, RWB said:

I was thinking along more casual lines, but the other path is OK, too.

:)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to derail your thread but not sure how to address the topic if it is going to have any practical impact.

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7 hours ago, RWB said:

We all know there are a small number of coin dealers whose knowledge and expertise is at the top of the field. Yet, we lump them under the same tired rubric "coin dealer." Maybe those top coin sellers should have a new title such as "croupier," or "provisioner," or "purveyor," or "master."

That's why I am satisfied with calling myself a Master Chiffonnier.  The qualifications are  undefined. The only problem is my wife does not allow me to practice my profession. It is also why we do not have a stick of furniture in our living room.   🐓🐓🐓 ;)

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@RWB Prompted by your query, regarding "coin dealers" and "expert sellers," I vaguely recalled neither term being used in Coin Week's article of the 100 Most Influential People in Numismatics, nor "nomen," short for nomen genticilium (a symbiotic paramecium I had never heard of ;)) more appropriately used to refer to a family's dynasty like Stack's.

In any event, what was listed were the more familiar terms like: collectors, dealers, researchers, authors, club officials, designers, artists, authenticators, graders, journalists, Mint officials and a group more popularly known as "and more."  I assume this does not include former shysters, boiler room telemarketing scamsters, the formerly disbarred and present-day wire fraudsters, traveling salesmen hawking potions not sold in stores that will restore a coin's original mint luster, the bait-and-switch crowd, Binion's types, fly-by-night here today, gone tomorrow types, some tax-evading hoarders and organized crime types with a predeliction for "cornering the market" the way the Hunt brothers did, circa 1980.  To quote the old Smith Barney commercial as presented by John Houseman regarding a reputable, well-known financial firm popular in the 1980's:  "They make money the old-fashioned way... they e-e-earn it!"  According to Andy Warhol:  "In the future, everybody will be world famous for fifteen minutes."  I am willing to bide my time.  🐓

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

what was listed were the more familiar terms like: collectors, dealers, researchers, authors, club officials, designers, artists, authenticators, graders, journalists, Mint officials and a group more popularly known as

peddlers, crooks, thieves, con-artists, rip offs, jail bird, perp, gangster, hoodlum, etc., etc.

:roflmao:

Edited by Alex in PA.
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34 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

peddlers, crooks, thieves, con-artists, rip offs, jail bird, perp, gangster, hoodlum, etc., etc.

:roflmao:

[My sincerest apologies to anyone I had inadvertently overlooked and excluded.]  :insane:

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Posted (edited)

I do hope everyone knows that the comment is just foolishness.  I subscribe to two Nationally known Coin Dealers and would not trade them for the world.  Over the years they have been truly outstanding in helping me get what I wanted.

Edited by Alex in PA.
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

100 Most Influential People in Numismatics, nor "nomen," short for nomen genticilium (a symbiotic paramecium I had never heard of ;)) more appropriately used to refer to a family's dynasty like Stack's.

This might help a little:

Praenomen, first of a Roman’s three names. The personal name or “first name/given name.” Bastardized as “Christian name.” Gaius Julius Caesar. John Philip Sousa

Nomen, the second personal name of a citizen of ancient Rome, indicating the gens (family or clan) to which he belonged. Not routinely followed in American and British naming conventions. Marcus Tullius Cicero. Thomas Alva Edison.

Cognomen, third of the customary three Roman individual’s names. Often an epithet; modern usage is for a surname meaning a family name. Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus. George Herman Ruth.

PS: Please let the symbiotic paramecia know their "nomen gentilicium" is Paramecium bursaria.

Edited by RWB
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1 hour ago, RWB said:

This might help a little:

Praenomen, first of a Roman’s three names. The personal name or “first name/given name.” Bastardized as “Christian name.” Gaius Julius Caesar. John Philip Sousa

Nomen, the second personal name of a citizen of ancient Rome, indicating the gens (family or clan) to which he belonged. Not routinely followed in American and British naming conventions. Marcus Tullius Cicero. Thomas Alva Edison.

Cognomen, third of the customary three Roman individual’s names. Often an epithet; modern usage is for a surname meaning a family name. Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus. George Herman Ruth.

PS: Please let the symbiotic paramecia know their "nomen gentilicium" is Paramecium bursaria.

Your wish is my command

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Just playing devils advocate because I do sincerely respect knowledgeable numismatists….

1. Does it really matter? I think an accurate description of the coin is a fundamental requirement. Knowledge of market trends and pricing is needed to offer fair buy and sell pricing. Aside from that what would a “certified” expert be able to offer that would be needed 99/100 times? Yes buyers may have more in depth questions from time to time and the knowledge would be helpful certainly, but the vast majority of coin transactions today occur based on the coin and the label on the slab. That doesn’t necessitate more than a general numismatic knowledge. Again not saying anyone could do it, but I don’t think it takes a “PHD” in numismatics when most times a “Bachelors” is sufficient. 
 

2. How would new players develop? Meaning I respect deeply those who have done this for decades, and certainly think they will have a deeper knowledge than even the sharpest new comer with a few years experience. Would the master dealers demand a premium for their coin sales vs an intermediate? We always preach buy the coin. Does it really matter who is selling it?

 

Now with all that said is if the point is simply to display that they have a mastery of the subject and claim a superior knowledge great. I can’t argue that they have earned it. But other than simply saying I’m a master of the subject what would it accomplish?

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@Alex in PA. There is a part of me that woud not dignify what anyone would say or think about what you've written with a response. Those who understand your intent and brand of humor are the only ones who count. I would hope that if any question arose concerning same, they would have conferred with the threadmaster, as a courtesy, and ask him for an explanation. There is always time to get the guillotine. You've done fine, Alex!

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Seems to me that a lot of these types of discussions have a common motivation - to lessen the err, umm, unfair (????) advantage that those who have dedicated a lifetime of study and knowledge to the field often enjoy. As such, it is doomed to failure. The only thing we need is more dedication by more people to do what it takes to develop expertise, and that often means NOT USING THE INTERNET for a source. That is something too many are not willing to do, and they put themselves in peril inevitably. 

 

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@VKurtB "You don't expect me to know what to say about a play when I don’t know who the author is, do you?"

- George Bernard Shaw

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB "You don't expect me to know what to say about a play when I don’t know who the author is, do you?"

- George Bernard Shaw

Mr. Shaw is mistaken. One should read widely regardless of authorship. All that doing what Shaw suggests is reinforce the "tribe" mentality that pervades virtually all discourse so far in the 2020's. It is a cancer. How else do you think I survived the last 13 years WORKING for one political "tribe" while regularly voting for the other one?

It has become my fervent belief that there is "Internet numismatics", and then there is "meat space" numismatics, and they share virtually NOTHING in common except the coins. Trying to bring them together, by getting online denizens to join the ANA, or figuring out how the ANA (an EDUCATIONAL organization and NOT an ADVOCACY organization and ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HECK a dealer trade organization) can appeal to the Internet group, are both exercises in pointlessness, much as people dislike hearing that.

Edited by VKurtB
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"Good data does not drive out bad data."

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4 hours ago, RWB said:

"Good data does not drive out bad data."

Or….. “ A lie gets around the world twice before the truth gets its boots on.”

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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

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