Opinions on 1838 Capped Bust Reeded Edge “Half Dollar” 1 1

[Woods020]

I am contemplating a purchase on the following coin, and wanted some other opinions. I love the fact that it’s not toned, but that also worries me. It graded MS66 at NGC. What are others opinions on is this solid for grade?

[RWB]

Major purchase. Would not want to speculate about it on a public forum.

[MarkFeld]

It's obviously been dipped, but appears to still have have decent or better luster.

Liberty's face looks as if it might have more chatter than I'd be OK with at that grade. And of course, the price might make a huge difference, one way or the other, as well.    

[Coinbuf]

For a coin of that age I would expect to see some tone, at least some light dove gray patina of some sort.  For that reason I have to think that the coin was dipped prior to being sent for grading/slabbing.   This does not bother me at all so long as the luster has not been damaged due to being over dipped, from the photos the luster looks strong so I don't see any issues with that.  However the market and I differ on how we feel about dipped coins at this particular point in time, so I might be somewhat hesitant to pay full 66 money knowing that the market does not generally like the bright silver look for a coin like this.

In reading what I've written it sounds like I'm trying to talk you out of buying this coin, that is not the case.  Its a coin that I really like but at my age I always tend to think about the resale considerations too.

[Woods020]

Thanks Mark and Coinbuf. While RWB makes a good point about speculation I do value others opinions. I clearly had some hesitancy which is why I asked. I value both of your opinions and big purchases is where I actually want feedback versus the smaller ones. I guess I’m accustomed to the corporate world where I have a “steering committee” to look at things from all angles. Perhaps I’ll get a steering committee of a few of you to help me with opinions as I make some of the purchases. 

[Woods020]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

Its a coin that I really like but at my age I always tend to think about the resale considerations too.

I’m 38 and resale value is a huge part of my decisions. I look at my collection as a fun way to enjoy them while I’m here, and a good way to leave something to my kid and grandkids when that happens without some of the estate pitfalls. Atleast this way I get to have some fun with it while I’m doing it. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Woods020

[MarkFeld]

45 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

Thanks Mark and Coinbuf. While RWB makes a good point about speculation I do value others opinions. I clearly had some hesitancy which is why I asked. I value both of your opinions and big purchases is where I actually want feedback versus the smaller ones. I guess I’m accustomed to the corporate world where I have a “steering committee” to look at things from all angles. Perhaps I’ll get a steering committee of a few of you to help me with opinions as I make some of the purchases. 

You're most welcome and steering committees certainly have their place. Enjoy your collecting.

[Morpheus1967]

Beautiful. 

[RWB]

3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

You're most welcome and steering committees certainly have their place.

True -- So long as we don't put them on "auto drive" and go to sleep.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Woah!  Nice!

Good sound advice/opinions in the above posts, I really don't have much else to add other than. Hubba hubba. 

[Woods020]

I think I’m going to pass. The fact that it has been dipped scares me. And I think Mark’s comments were spot on about a little too much going on with the cheek. I have looked at this coin until my eyes are crossing 🥴

[World Colonial]

You can find a nice one in a lower grade at a fraction of the price.  You didn't mention the price but a 66 in this series doesn't come cheap.

[Just Bob]

I waited until I could view the coin on my laptop before answering. My phone pictures weren't good enough for me to feel comfortable offering an opinion.

It's a pretty coin, to be sure, but I would like it better in a 65 holder. I agree with Mark about the cheek.

Here's an idea: see if you can get it for 65 money, then send it to NGC for grade review, in hopes of getting it in a 65 holder, then send it to CAC for a green bean. 

[Coinbuf]

5 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I waited until I could view the coin on my laptop before answering. My phone pictures weren't good enough for me to feel comfortable offering an opinion.

It's a pretty coin, to be sure, but I would like it better in a 65 holder. I agree with Mark about the cheek.

Here's an idea: see if you can get it for 65 money, then send it to NGC for grade review, in hopes of getting it in a 65 holder, then send it to CAC for a green bean. 

Sounds like work. 

[MarkFeld]

52 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I waited until I could view the coin on my laptop before answering. My phone pictures weren't good enough for me to feel comfortable offering an opinion.

It's a pretty coin, to be sure, but I would like it better in a 65 holder. I agree with Mark about the cheek.

Here's an idea: see if you can get it for 65 money, then send it to NGC for grade review, in hopes of getting it in a 65 holder, then send it to CAC for a green bean. 

My experience has been that sellers are extremely unlikely to sell an NGC or PCGS graded coin for a price commensurate with the next grade down. And even if the coin appears to be over-graded, I can’t blame them. Because there is almost always someone who will be swayed enough by the assigned grade, to be willing to pay a price largely based upon that grade. Exceptions would be coins that have only minimal differences in value between the assigned grade and the next grade lower.

[Woods020]

59 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I waited until I could view the coin on my laptop before answering. My phone pictures weren't good enough for me to feel comfortable offering an opinion.

It's a pretty coin, to be sure, but I would like it better in a 65 holder. I agree with Mark about the cheek.

Here's an idea: see if you can get it for 65 money, then send it to NGC for grade review, in hopes of getting it in a 65 holder, then send it to CAC for a green bean. 

I may do that. The coin is at Sarasota Numismatics and I haven’t dealt with them before. I made another decent sized, albeit smaller, purchase there last week. I actually received that coin today. Maybe since I’ve bought recently, negotiate well and most importantly hold my mouth just right they will work with me. The price isn’t bad for a true 66, but it’s more than 65 money. I sincerely appreciate the opinions and advice. Who says numismatics can’t be a team sport?

Edited April 29, 2021 by Woods020

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/28/2021 at 8:45 PM, Woods020 said:

Who says numismatics can’t be a team sport?

I have read and re-read this thread a number of times and as Honorary Finalizer of the Steering Committee, have but one concern which has nothing to do with damage/discoloration to cheek, jawbone and chin, blast whiteness, possible dipping -- the assignment of a grade and subsequent encapsulation effectively makes that a moot point -- but the trail left by the marine wood-boring shipworm through each of the date's numerals at their base terminating above a fold at Liberty's left bust.  It is a major distraction and would, for me, be the primary factor militating against purchase which no one, oddly, has acknowledged.  😉

[Woods020]

10 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I have read and re-read this thread a number of times and as Honorary Finalizer of the Steering Committee, have but one concern which has nothing to do with damage/discoloration to cheek, jawbone and chin, blast whiteness, possible dipping -- the assignment of a grade and subsequent encapsulation effectively makes that a moot point -- but the trail left by the marine wood-boring shipworm through each of the date's numerals at their base terminating above a fold at Liberty's left bust.  It is a major distraction and would, for me, be the primary factor militating against purchase which no one, oddly, has acknowledged.  😉

I passed on it. I was worried mostly about it inevitably been dipped. Die cracks are very common on these and similar coins of the era. It seems like more have them than not. 

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I have read and re-read this thread a number of times and as Honorary Finalizer of the Steering Committee, have but one concern which has nothing to do with damage/discoloration to cheek, jawbone and chin, blast whiteness, possible dipping -- the assignment of a grade and subsequent encapsulation effectively makes that a moot point -- but the trail left by the marine wood-boring shipworm through each of the date's numerals at their base terminating above a fold at Liberty's left bust.  It is a major distraction and would, for me, be the primary factor militating against purchase which no one, oddly, has acknowledged.  😉

The assignment of a grade and encapsulation don’t effectively make flaws and a dipped appearance a moot point. At least for those who care about what the coin looks like.

On the other hand, very few buyers would see the die crack you mentioned as a negative.

Edited May 17, 2021 by MarkFeld

[Henri Charriere]

57 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

The assignment of a grade and encapsulation don’t effectively make flaws and a dipped appearance a moot point. At least for those who care about what the coin looks like.

On the other hand, very few buyers would see the die crack you mentioned as a negative.

Alright, so fault lines are to be worshipped and not shunned.  Correct me if I am wrong:  NGC assigned a grade to this coin because after examination it was deemed not to have been cleaned?  I wonder what gave me the impression that one of the disqualifying factors was a coin that had been "cleaned" (as opposed to an inability to conclusively prove it had been subjected to a chemical application to enhance its features).

[MarkFeld]

6 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Alright, so fault lines are to be worshipped and not shunned.  Correct me if I am wrong:  NGC assigned a grade to this coin because after examination it was deemed not to have been cleaned?  I wonder what gave me the impression that one of the disqualifying factors was a coin that had been "cleaned" (as opposed to an inability to conclusively prove it had been subjected to a chemical application to enhance its features).

Many coins which have been straight-graded by NGC and PCGS have been dipped or cleaned by some other means. This is one of them and I don’t think they would dispute that. When the grading companies feel that a cleaning is too severe for a straight-grade, they will note the cleaning and assign a details-grade, instead.

[Woods020]

9 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Alright, so fault lines are to be worshipped and not shunned.  Correct me if I am wrong:  NGC assigned a grade to this coin because after examination it was deemed not to have been cleaned?  I wonder what gave me the impression that one of the disqualifying factors was a coin that had been "cleaned" (as opposed to an inability to conclusively prove it had been subjected to a chemical application to enhance its features).

The underlying premise is that the surfaces of the coin can not be altered. A light dip, while removing surface contaminants and lightening, doesn’t fundamentally alter the coin itself. Repeated or prolonged dips, incorrect chemicals, or abrasive cleaning will alter the coin surfaces. This coin still has mint luster so it was a light dip, but still something I don’t like. 
 

PCGS has a series of grading seminars available on YouTube by the way. Coin grading 101,102,103….In one of the videos I remember them explicitly saying a single quick dip wouldn’t necessarily cause a detail grade, but repeated dips would. 
 

**** To any newer collectors or future readers this is not intended to promote cleaning of a coin in any way.****

Edited May 17, 2021 by Woods020
Added disclaimer

[Henri Charriere]

To Messrs. @MarkFeld and @Woods020 Thank you, gentlemen for the clarifications.