Silver Dollar Inventory - Post-Pittman - Philadelphia Mint 1 1

[RWB]

The table pictured below is a composite of all silver dollars and their vault locations held by the Philadelphia Mint as of November 24, 1922. Sadly, we don't have date and mint information for the "Bland" dollars (i.e. "Morgans").

Edited March 29, 2021 by RWB

[EdG_Ohio]

Thanks for sharing. 
The information you provide occasionally, is this data you have compiled through your research or you visit the Archives themselves on occasion or use the online database ?  

[RWB]

It is from my original research --- hands-on stuff. None of it is on-line.

NARA has no plans to digitize US Mint documents and ledgers. NNP has digitized a very limited selection and is working on more. My database is larger and spans a wider selection of materials....such as the chart above. This one was so large I had to photograph it in sections then piece them together in Photoshop.

[GoldFinger1969]

36 minutes ago, RWB said:

It is from my original research --- hands-on stuff. None of it is on-line. NARA has no plans to digitize US Mint documents and ledgers. NNP has digitized a very limited selection and is working on more. My database is larger and spans a wider selection of materials....such as the chart above. This one was so large I had to photograph it in sections then piece them together in Photoshop.

Is it possible that there is a "treasure trove" of documents on stuff that we have speculated on in the past....i.e, the stolen 1928 DE's.....Mint records regarding the 1933 Saint and Indian Head coins that stockpiled up.....reaction of Mint officials to dealers/speculators making a fortune off their coins released at face value....etc....that we just haven't gotten to yet ?  

Or has most of the "juicy stuff" been found already and it's basically minutae interesting only to numismatic experts and their followers ? 

 

[RWB]

All sorts of things might exist, but they have not appeared. I've checked a great many boxes and folders with ordinary titles and found some extraordinary documents....nearly all of the first 3 Renaissance books came from unlabeled boxes. The same for 1933 DE and lots of other things...Including the table above.

A substantial missing segment includes personal letters and diaries. There are few of these for mint officers and almost nothing from anyone else.

Edited March 29, 2021 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

13 minutes ago, RWB said:

All sorts of things might exist, but they have not appeared. I've checked a great many boxes and folders with ordinary titles and found some extraordinary documents....nearly all of the first 3 Renaissance books came from unlabeled boxes. The same for 1933 DE and lots of other things...Including the table above.  A substantial missing segment includes personal letters and diaries. There are few of these for mint officers and almost nothing from anyone else.

I doubt it is in writing, but imagine the conversations among the Mint officials about melting down ALL of the gold in those vaults.....and striking all those 1933's when you were probably sure they were all going to be melted down.....and what Nellie Ross and others might have said regarding the 1933's in private.

Could have used Facebook and Twitter back then. 

[Alex in PA.]

Another great historical post.  Very interesting reading; thanks very much.

[Woods020]

This is very interesting. I’m trying to piece together the type of dollar each line is referring to. Would it be correct to assume:

Bland = Morgan’s 1878-1904 (bland act to Pittman act)

Pittman = Morgan 1921’s

Were peace dollars included in “storage” or “Pittman”? Or only the specific line titled Peace? I didn’t see where 1921 Peace dollars were mentioned so it is presumably in one of those?

It’s hard to imagine the sheer weight and  bulk of this many silver dollars in one building. 

[RWB]

25 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

This is very interesting. I’m trying to piece together the type of dollar each line is referring to. Would it be correct to assume:

Bland = Morgan’s 1878-1904 (bland act to Pittman act)

Pittman = Morgan 1921’s

Were peace dollars included in “storage” or “Pittman”? Or only the specific line titled Peace? I didn’t see where 1921 Peace dollars were mentioned so it is presumably in one of those?

It’s hard to imagine the sheer weight and  bulk of this many silver dollars in one building. 

This table shows only 1922 Peace dollars. The location of 1921 Peace dollars is in another table.This vault was mostly storage. 1921 Peace and some 1922 were in the cashier's vault and a transit vault where they were shipped out and then received back in from banks and FRB locations.

[RWB]

Here is one of two pages from the Treasurer's transfer order journal for 1921 Peace dollars. The page date is January 4, 1922. A total of 740,000 pieces from the 1 million + mintage were shipped out to FRBs and FRB Branches. The coins were embargoed until Jan 6 (I think...? It's in the 1916-1921 book.) The dates at far left are the transfer date; the actual shipping date sometimes differed. (The original image is a lot sharper. This was prepared on a special wide-carriage typewriter.)

Edited March 31, 2021 by RWB

[Conder101]

I wouldn't expect the 21 Peace dollars to have been put into the storage vault.  These coins were "special" a quasi commemorative marking the official end of the War to end all wars, and were to mark the beginning of a lasting peace.  they would have wanted to get these special coins into the hands of the public.

What I find amazing is that this was just one vault, and it held 133,010 BAGS of silver dollars  Nearly 1/3 of the entire mintage of silver dollars since 1878 was in that one vault.

[DWLange]

As late as the 1940s collectors could still purchase 1921 Peace Dollars at face value from the Treasury in person or by mail. This was just one of many issues going back to the 1920s still in the Cash Room. Buyers were limited to two of each coin so as to show heads and tails in their "cabinets." This same assumption was behind the double Uncirculated Sets sold starting with the coins of 1947 and lasting through 1958. The older coins ceased to be available once these sets were offered beginning early 1948.

[Woods020]

Does the mint or treasury do anything similar to this today? Meaning storage of previously struck coinage. I never see the mint offering anything older than say the previous year. Of course I don’t buy from the mint to I may not see it. 

[RWB]

13 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I wouldn't expect the 21 Peace dollars to have been put into the storage vault.  These coins were "special" a quasi commemorative marking the official end of the War to end all wars, and were to mark the beginning of a lasting peace.  they would have wanted to get these special coins into the hands of the public.

What I find amazing is that this was just one vault, and it held 133,010 BAGS of silver dollars  Nearly 1/3 of the entire mintage of silver dollars since 1878 was in that one vault.

Manufacture of 1921 Peace dollars was pushed by President Harding so that coins would be available during the Limitation of Armaments Conference ending in January 1922 in Washington, D.C. That is why the project suddenly "caught fire" in November 1921.

The "new" Philadelphia Mint had three primary vaults: a small one for the Cashier, and two large ones for gold and silver respectively. The silver vault was crowded with dollar coins and temporary storage of subsidiary silver. That resulted in some of the dollars being stuck into gold vault cages.

[RWB]

16 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

Does the mint or treasury do anything similar to this today? Meaning storage of previously struck coinage. I never see the mint offering anything older than say the previous year. Of course I don’t buy from the mint to I may not see it. 

Only to a limited extent as part of smoothing distribution to FRBs. Quantities of older, but uncirculated, coins sit around various vaults, and will occasionally end up in circulation -- examples might include statehood quarters that suddenly show up in bank rolls. However, there is no organized distribution for collectors beyond the US Mint's sales and special packaging.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

55 minutes ago, RWB said:

 

The "new" Philadelphia Mint had three primary vaults: a small one for the Cashier, and two large ones for gold and silver respectively. The silver vault was crowded with dollar coins and temporary storage of subsidiary silver. That resulted in some of the dollars being stuck into gold vault cages.

I wonder if the gold sneered at the silver.  I would have.     

[Conder101]

16 hours ago, RWB said:

Manufacture of 1921 Peace dollars was pushed by President Harding so that coins would be available during the Limitation of Armaments Conference ending in January 1922 in Washington, D.C. That is why the project suddenly "caught fire" in November 1921.

I also thought that it was desired to have at least some of the coins dated the year the peace treaty was signed (I know that was one of the things that Zerbe wanted.  Yes I know Zerbe didn't run the Mint or the Treasury, but I'm sure he probably made those desires known and would probably have seemed like a good idea to the people in control.)  If that was desired they had to move fast since the Treaty wasn't signed until I believe the second week in November

Edited April 1, 2021 by Conder101

[RWB]

Yes. That was why the president's push to have 1921-dated coins. The conference ended in January 1922. It's interesting that no one authorized adding the word "PEACE." There is no discussion of it until afterward. DeFrancisci's model was the only one with this added. [Details in RAC 1916-1921.]

(Zerbe had no influence on this coin or any other of that period. He had screwed up the 1915 PPIE commemoratives and Treasury wanted nothing to do with him. [Details in RAC 1909-1915.])

[Conder101]

No one authorized the word, but they didn't forbid it either

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/29/2021 at 3:59 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Another great historical post.  Very interesting reading; thanks very much.

That's what makes Roger's SAINTS book so interesting.  In each chapter review of a year or mintmarked Saint, he has eclectic documents, sections, letters, or commentaries from different parties to the entire coin minting process.  Plus the special chapters between the yearly reviews.

[RWB]

7 hours ago, Conder101 said:

No one authorized the word, but they didn't forbid it either

True. In 1906 Saint-Gaudens suggested adding the word "JUSTICE" to the DE design. President Roosevelt replied that he thought it would have to be approved by Congress, and the less he had to deal with Congress the better.

Coinage, as the unique purview of the Federal government, operates under the Dillon Rule doctrine concept.  This means coins can include only such materials and inscriptions as defined by law. That is the consistent approach in US coin. Therefore the word "PEACE" was not legally included on the coin....however, no one noticed (or objected that we know of) including the President or members of Congress, until after the fact.

Edited April 2, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/2/2021 at 3:55 AM, Conder101 said:

No one authorized the word, but they didn't forbid it either

I would have developed a hybrid. A strong strike with PEACE rendered incused in bas-relief, if feasible.

[GoldFinger1969]

Weren't there tons of papers from the Philly Mint that got destroyed in the 1970's ?  I thought I read it somewhere....some woman ordered their destruction, like 90% of all the papers over the decades ?

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Weren't there tons of papers from the Philly Mint that got destroyed in the 1970's ?  I thought I read it somewhere....some woman ordered their destruction, like 90% of all the papers over the decades ?

Director Stella Hackel had a lot of old mint documents destroyed. They were, by law, supposed to have been transferred to NARA.

[GoldFinger1969]

14 minutes ago, RWB said:

Director Stella Hackel had a lot of old mint documents destroyed. They were, by law, supposed to have been transferred to NARA.

That's it, thanks Roger ....not sure where I read it, maybe it was one of your posts, RWB.....what a fiasco.  You wonder if she was ordered to do it because higher-ups knew what some of the papers might reveal.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[DWLange]

President Carter called for a reduction in government waste, and Ms. Hackel-Sims (she married while in office) made her own interpretation of that mandate by tossing a lot of documents no longer current. Of course, calling for a reduction in government waste is like asking for worldwide peace; it's a nice sentiment but somewhat unrealistic.

[RWB]

There were periodic "house cleanings" beginning in the 1850s and occurring about every 20 to 30 years. Much involved temporary records, but also things like operations notebooks and such were also thrown out, given to retiring employees, used for scratch paper or sold for recycling. We have only fragmentary records of what once existed or of why much was destroyed while others survived.

One at least two occasions mint directors attempted to preserve old documents by having letters copied into journals by a clerk hired specifically for that purpose. Much of what is found in RG104 Entry 3 (NARA Philadelphia and on NNP) resulted from this.

[Henri Charriere]

With all federal agencies experiencing growth, some exponentially, the production of records requires space and space, i.e. records archives or warehouses, cost money. Consequently, all government agencies and bureaus were ordered to purge their files of no longer needed materials. With the advent of photocopying and micro filming, many original documents were discarded or destroyed. With digitization, record-keeping has changed but we will never be able to appreciate the significance of what was lost forever.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

With all federal agencies experiencing growth, some exponentially, the production of records requires space and space, i.e. records archives or warehouses, cost money. Consequently, all government agencies and bureaus were ordered to purge their files of no longer needed materials. With the advent of photocopying and micro filming, many original documents were discarded or destroyed. With digitization, record-keeping has changed but we will never be able to appreciate the significance of what was lost forever.

Yeah, there had to have been lots of inter-office memos on stuff we debate endlessly....like the 1933 Saints that got  out of the Mint....the 1928 DE's that got stolen.....etc.

Imagine hearing the higher-ups thoughts on paper as they wrote back to one another or to counterparts in other Mints or the Treasury in Washington.

Damn..........

[RWB]

Technology does that.

Consider the invention of presscopy books

Inked numbering stamps

Typewriter

Telephone

Carbon arc and later incandescent lighting

Electrolytic refining

on-and-on-and-on

Economic failures usually reset business and national (now global) economies. It is never the same as it was.