43 copper on 44 planchet multi strike transition error war time sent uncommon .comments
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that is a heavily corroded and cleaned cent, I see absolutely no reason to think it is anything but a late wheat cent of no intrinsic or numismatic value

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I’m genuinely curious and do not mean this condescendingly. What do you see that makes you think this is all you mention? What makes you think this is a 43 if you can’t see the date? What makes you think it’s been struck multiple times? If people understand what you think you are seeing they can help you learn for next time. 

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14 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

that is a heavily corroded and cleaned cent, I see absolutely no reason to think it is anything but a late wheat cent of no intrinsic or numismatic value

Cleaned? Using what? No offense to the OP, but the moment I laid eyes on that thing the first thought that popped into my head was that quote, often misquoted, attributed to Hermann Goering: "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." (actually, ...unholster or unsnap the release on my gun." There really is not much more to say.

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8 hours ago, Woods020 said:

I’m genuinely curious and do not mean this condescendingly. What do you see that makes you think this is all you mention? What makes you think this is a 43 if you can’t see the date? What makes you think it’s been struck multiple times? If people understand what you think you are seeing they can help you learn for next time. 

Welcome to the Forum K!

You are being far too kind to Kindlyspeaker, a member who could not wait to jump into the arena less than twenty-four hours after joining. [Heads-up to Ratzie33: you've got some potentially serious competition!]

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Just had a talk with my better half who asked me what was so funny that had me laughing uproariously and she ordered me to apologize to you immediately.

Kindlyspeaker, you've caught me in a good mood and made my night.  Therefore, I apologize and, if amenable to the suggestion, made here publicly, that I am prepared to make up for your loss, one mangled "road kill" as one member put it, and offer you one of my many unremarkable 1972 Kennedy halves and/or an "Ike" one of 110 I had gotten from a local bank on New York City's upper East Side, all curiously bicentennial issues I theorize were squirreled away years ago by a speculator who finally gave up his "investment."

If you tap on my user name, my profile will materialize (the 3 Warnings are difficult to overlook) and somewhere you will find an envelope tab with which, should you accept my offer, ^^ email me a name and address to which I can send you these items free of charge.

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9 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Cleaned? Using what? No offense to the OP, but the moment I laid eyes on that thing the first thought that popped into my head was that quote, often misquoted, attributed to Hermann Goering: "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." (actually, ...unholster or unsnap the release on my gun." There really is not much more to say.

Do you doubt it was cleaned?

If so please tell me how else would it get the orange-red color on the high points while the deep pits are almost black, I would love to learn

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3 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

Do you doubt it was cleaned?

If so please tell me how else would it get the orange-red color on the high points while the deep pits are almost black, I would love to learn

This is an example of an atrocious assault on an inanimate object.  The high points bore the brunt of the abrasions and lacerations which only a accentuated what was already there: a high concentration of copper.  If this were cleaned, the pits and bullet pings would not be black.  Incidentally, what would be the point of cleaning a coin that appears to have survived the WWII bombings of Dresden? I challenge any expert lurking about this Forum to say otherwise!

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4 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

This is an example of an atrocious assault on an inanimate object.  The high points bore the brunt of the abrasions and lacerations which only a accentuated what was already there: a high concentration of copper.  If this were cleaned, the pits and bullet pings would not be black.  Incidentally, what would be the point of cleaning a coin that appears to have survived the WWII bombings of Dresden? I challenge any expert lurking about this Forum to say otherwise!

I have no strong opinion on if it was cleaned or not. However, a sound argument could be made it was. Brushing the surface with an abrasive brush or rubbing with a cloth will do just what we are seeing without touching the pitting and incuse areas. Dipping or chemical cleaning probably isn’t the case here because it would have gotten those spots to some degree. But cleaning is a broad term and it’s certainly possible this was cleaned. It’s also entirely possible the shine on the high spots is from parking lot abrasion. But either way the shine is caused by abrasion and it could have been from cleaning. Who knows for certain what happened, but you can’t say it’s impossible. 

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On 3/8/2021 at 7:23 AM, JT2 said:

nothing here to see

Insider, undoubtedly, would beg to differ but, nevertheless, that is why we have medical examiners, coroners and pathologists conduct autopsies to determine a  cause of death.  And if the finding is inconclusive, so be it. Just another in a long list of unsolved mysteries and cold cases stretching back to western Anatolia in ancient times.

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You are experienced people, please tell me how, except for scanning a coin, to find out its meanness and age? I only know how you can determine the dishonesty of a coin using the metal analysis method? Are there any other ways?

Edited by AlexCaffe
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6 minutes ago, AlexCaffr said:

You are experienced people, please tell me how, except for scanning a coin, to find out its meanness and age? I only know how you can determine the dishonesty of a coin using the metal analysis method? Are there any other ways?

If you are asking about the coin that is in the op's photos there is nothing to gain by any sort of metal analysis, it would be a waste of time and money.

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11 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

If you are asking about the coin that is in the op's photos there is nothing to gain by any sort of metal analysis, it would be a waste of time and money.

Please tell me which coins can be checked for bad faith by analyzing the constituent parts of the metal from which they are made. Recently there was an opportunity to do it for free. For 30 years, my relatives have collected a decent collection of coins from different eras and different nations. And they asked me to check their coins for meanness

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17 minutes ago, AlexCaffr said:

Please tell me which coins can be checked for bad faith by analyzing the constituent parts of the metal from which they are made. Recently there was an opportunity to do it for free. For 30 years, my relatives have collected a decent collection of coins from different eras and different nations. And they asked me to check their coins for meanness

I am not a metallurgist, and its important to understand that many coins are made from more than one metal.  A wheat cent is composed of .95 copper and .05 tin and zinc except for the war years when the composition changed to steel coated with zinc.   A simple test is a specific gravity test which is is a useful diagnostic tool when trying to determine the mineral species of an unknown mineral.  However there is no test that I know of that can determine the age of a coin where the date has been destroyed, there might be tests or machines that can tell you the age of the metal.   But knowing that the metal is however many thousands of year old will not tell you when this coin was made at the U.S. mint.

Edited by Coinbuf
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Meanness, age, dishonesty, bad faith?   At the outset, with the exception of age, I believe most members will agree that the descriptors used by the OP as applied to numismatics, is refreshingly different from the terms ordinarily used by U.S. collectors.  While I agree with member Coinbuf's comments, I should like to emphasize the search for truth is never-ending.  The OP has raised an interesting point which deserves amplification.

As most of us know, with DNA, we can determine with some specificity what part of the world our ancestry came from. We can generally state whether a human skeleton is that of male or female, race, age - even how well-nourished. Just as the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) can determine the country of origin of a drug (and growing region) it can also determine purity and diluent used.  Metals present their own properties.  Gold from the Canada's Yukon differs from that of California; silver from the Comstock lode differs from that of Peru. (With the discovery of the shipwreck S.S. Central America, we were able to recover not only coinage but "Gold Rush" gold in its raw, unrefined form which, under analysis, reveals it's own unique signature.)  While I can understand the "much ado about nothing" attitude of members regarding the sophisticated (and likely costly) spectral analysis of a mere penny, the problem with metals is complicated by constant cycling and recycling. Gold and silver ores are extracted, refined, melted, alloyed, re-melted, re-issued, minted, melted again into bars and re-minted or re-purposed for other uses such as jewelry and industry.  I would imagine copper presents its own problems.  For that reason I feel determining age with some degree of specificity, particularly as it relates to coinage and date of mintage, is beyond present technological capability.

[My sincere apologies to MAULEMALL, members who dislike long commentary -- and the moderator tasked with monitoring my every keystroke]

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3 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Meanness, age, dishonesty, bad faith?   At the outset, with the exception of age, I believe most members will agree that the descriptors used by the OP as applied to numismatics, is refreshingly different from the terms ordinarily used by U.S. collectors.  While I agree with member Coinbuf's comments, I should like to emphasize the search for truth is never-ending.  The OP has raised an interesting point which deserves amplification.

As most of us know, with DNA, we can determine with some specificity what part of the world our ancestry came from. We can generally state whether a human skeleton is that of male or female, race, age - even how well-nourished. Just as the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) can determine the country of origin of a drug (and growing region) it can also determine purity and diluent used.  Metals present their own properties.  Gold from the Canada's Yukon differs from that of California; silver from the Comstock lode differs from that of Peru. (With the discovery of the shipwreck S.S. Central America, we were able to recover not only coinage but "Gold Rush" gold in its raw, unrefined form which, under analysis, reveals it's own unique signature.)  While I can understand the "much ado about nothing" attitude of members regarding the sophisticated (and likely costly) spectral analysis of a mere penny, the problem with metals is complicated by constant cycling and recycling. Gold and silver ores are extracted, refined, melted, alloyed, re-melted, re-issued, minted, melted again into bars and re-minted or re-purposed for other uses such as jewelry and industry.  I would imagine copper presents its own problems.  For that reason I feel determining age with some degree of specificity, particularly as it relates to coinage and date of mintage, is beyond present technological capability.

[My sincere apologies to MAULEMALL, members who dislike long commentary -- and the moderator tasked with monitoring my every keystroke]

I think this was a very informative post. I know I learned something from it anyway. Thanks for posting. 

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2 hours ago, Oldhoopster said:

I’m guessing the poster you’re referencing is a non-native speaker and is using a translation program (I would be terrified to post on a foreign language site in something other than English).  It may be best to respond with simple sentences that can be understood or translated easily.  Long, roundabout, difficult to follow, response will probably get lost in translation and be of no value, IMO

 

I'll try to translate @Quintus Arrius post so @AlexCaffr might be able to understand.

It is very difficult to determine the date of a coin using analytical testing.  

 

 

😂  =  I approve, whole-heartedly. Many thanks!

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On 3/11/2021 at 12:43 AM, Coinbuf said:

I am not a metallurgist, and its important to understand that many coins are made from more than one metal.  A wheat cent is composed of .95 copper and .05 tin and zinc except for the war years when the composition changed to steel coated with zinc.   A simple test is a specific gravity test which is is a useful diagnostic tool when trying to determine the mineral species of an unknown mineral.  However there is no test that I know of that can determine the age of a coin where the date has been destroyed, there might be tests or machines that can tell you the age of the metal.   But knowing that the metal is however many thousands of year old will not tell you when this coin was made at the U.S. mint.

Thanks for the explanation. But I'm not saying that I can only find out about a component. Due to the fact that I work with ElvaTech, in my personal use there is a portable XRF analyzer that shows the exact composition of the coin. After I know the exact composition of the coin, I start comparing the analyzed coin with the original one. I compare their weight, volume, type. I just wanted to know in how many cases this method will be accurate?

Edited by AlexCaffe
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