Gold and silver coins for 1804 1 1

[RWB]

This is an 1888 recalculation of 1804 coinage. This was made in partial response to frequent requests for mintage of 1804 dollars by people claiming to have one. It is also one of the few mentions of pieces reserved for the Assayer and thus destroyed in testing.

Edited February 17, 2021 by RWB

[Alex in PA.]

A very interesting piece of numismatic history.  Thanks for posting it.

[DWLange]

This would have done nothing to discourage inquiries about 1804 dollars, as it includes the number of dollar coins delivered in 1804 without explaining that they bore other dates. It's likely that Mr. Crotzer did not know the truth, as was probably true for Supt. Fox, too.

[RWB]

5 minutes ago, DWLange said:

This would have done nothing to discourage inquiries about 1804 dollars, as it includes the number of dollar coins delivered in 1804 without explaining that they bore other dates. It's likely that Mr. Crotzer did not know the truth, as was probably true for Supt. Fox, too.

I've never seen anything remotely contemporary that mentions how the 1804 dollars and 1804 proof Eagles were made. I agree that they probably did not know. However, the research exercise gave them something to point to when asked. That, and a confused shrug, became the standard answer.

[Henri Charriere]

[I keep hoping that one day provocative exchanges not unlike the above would come to the attention of a direct descendant with the real inside story instead of him just sitting there and dismissing the theorizing with a loud guffaw and a wave of the hand saying, "that ain't the way it happened.  Here, son, pull up a chair.  Let me tell you the real story."  😉

[CaptHenway]

Interesting in that it shows dollars dated 1803 being submitted to the Annual Assay for the coinage of 1804 and nobody cared about the actual date. This reinforces my claim that the one Standard Silver Dollar submitted to the Annual Assay by the San Francisco Mint during the Calendar Year 1873 was dated 1872, and that the mythical 1873-S Seated Liberty Silver Dollar was never struck.

TD

[RWB]

During the first decades, the Annual Assay examined coins made from the year between one Assay meeting and the next, so having two different year dates was normal. This tightened up as output increased and better, more traceable accounting was needed. Bob Julian explored some of this in one of his early Scrapbook articles. It was not until February 1838 that examination was limited to coins from the previous calendar year by utilizing the director’s discretion in the Act of January 18, 1837.

Edited February 18, 2021 by RWB

[Conder101]

On 2/17/2021 at 3:20 PM, RWB said:

I've never seen anything remotely contemporary that mentions how the 1804 dollars and 1804 proof Eagles were made. I agree that they probably did not know.

Yet later Mint official who would have known better, would write letters of "authenticity" for various 1804 dollars declaring them to be genuine dollars struck in the year 1804.

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Yet later Mint official who would have known better, would write letters of "authenticity" for various 1804 dollars declaring them to be genuine dollars struck in the year 1804.

Unfortunately, the Mint officers did not really know. Much of the early documentation was destroyed in a Treasury Dept fire in 1835 (I think...) so the officers had only limited original data. At the US Mint, institutional knowledge was kept in the memories of employees, not in complete written form. When wanting information about the Mint Cabinet collection, one had to ask Dubois and/or Eckfeldt - almost nothing was in writing.

[DWLange]

Peter the Mint Eagle knew everything, but he took it to the grave with him. 

[RWB]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:49 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[I keep hoping that one day provocative exchanges not unlike the above would come to the attention of a direct descendant with the real inside story instead of him just sitting there and dismissing the theorizing with a loud guffaw and a wave of the hand saying, "that ain't the way it happened.  Here, son, pull up a chair.  Let me tell you the real story."  😉

The Eckfeldt family has a long history of Mint employment in Senior positions and would be an excellent source of "what really happened" in 1804. Adam Eckfeldt was Assistant Coiner in1804 and later Chief Coiner. The Chief Coiner was the one who knew exactly what was done. His Dept made the working dies, made die repairs, struck coins, counted coins and delivered them to the Treasurer or the Government Department that ordered them. Nothing has been located to show any of them ever disclosed anything more than the material in the original letter (above).

Edited February 19, 2021 by RWB

[Woods020]

I wonder if this accounting included those for sale on Amazon for $2.99? But the shipping is what gets you at $3.99. And no pesky “copy” struck anywhere in the coin. 😂

 

https://www.amazon.com/BeiQian-Dollars-1804-1926-Collecting-Silver-goodService/dp/B07FN1KQQN/ref=asc_df_B07FN1KQQN/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309822978421&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3358985671573199673&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012604&hvtargid=pla-623149074662&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=62020063176&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=309822978421&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3358985671573199673&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012604&hvtargid=pla-623149074662

[RWB]

Report the crooks.

[Woods020]

58 minutes ago, RWB said:

Report the crooks.

Can someone tell me how? With eBay it’s easy. I searched for 30 minutes on Amazon in the customer service and help sections and find no way to actually contact them regarding a listing. This seller has many fakes for sale on there. 

[Conder101]

I believe some of the letters were written by officers who were in office during the time the dollars were struck and definitely when the later restrikes were made.

[RWB]

7 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I believe some of the letters were written by officers who were in office during the time the dollars were struck and definitely when the later restrikes were made.

True. Which suggests they were either hiding information or relied only on the standard records, thus preparing superficial responses.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/19/2021 at 8:20 PM, RWB said:

Report the crooks.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/19/2021 at 9:19 PM, Woods020 said:

Can someone tell me how? With eBay it’s easy. I searched for 30 minutes on Amazon in the customer service and help sections and find no way to actually contact them regarding a listing. This seller has many fakes for sale on there. 

Herewith formerly a legitimate 1881 Morgan Dollar,  reeding intact, two outstretched wings bisecting UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and E. PLURIBUS UNUM inside the one-inch diameter coin beneath which appears a curious seal pup. I believe it is a Size 12 men's ring whose very existence, utilitarian though it may be, flies directly in the face of the federal criminal code.

16 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Henri Charriere]

14 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Herewith formerly a legitimate 1881 Morgan Dollar,  reeding intact, two outstretched wings bisecting UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and E. PLURIBUS UNUM inside the one-inch diameter coin beneath which appears a curious seal pup. I believe it is a Size 12 men's ring whose very existence, utilitarian though it may be, flies directly in the face of the federal criminal code.

 

[zadok]

this topic discussed several times....there is no federal law against making jewelry out of US coins.....moot point....

[RWB]

47 minutes ago, zadok said:

this topic discussed several times....there is no federal law against making jewelry out of US coins.....moot point....

Agreed. Plus, a ring is not in the "likeness or similitude" of a coin.

A latter 19th century argument related to adding stickers to one side of a coin (quarters and nickels). That was nixed - law prohibits advertising on a legal tender coin. (The majority of coins stamped with ads were large copper cents and half cents - which were not a legal tender.) Advertising prohibition was also the argument from the Washington Star newspaper that resulted in removal of Victor Brenner's initials from the new cent in 1909.

Edited February 24, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

10 hours ago, zadok said:

this topic discussed several times....there is no federal law against making jewelry out of US coins.....moot point....

[Hear that, Ratzie? No law! "We're-in-the-mo-ney..."]

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/24/2021 at 9:17 AM, RWB said:

Advertising prohibition was also the argument from the Washington Star newspaper that resulted in removal of Victor Brenner's initials from the new cent in 1909.

I never knew that.  I always thought the backlash was due to its ostentatious display.  I believe your average non-collector is not aware they are even there.  (When VKurtB is not peering over my shoulder, I examine the initials with my 30-power loupe and marvel at the sharp, perfectly formed incisions made under great pressure at high speed.)

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I never knew that.  I always thought the backlash was due to its ostentatious display.  I believe your average non-collector is not aware they are even there.  (When VKurtB is not peering over my shoulder, I examine the initials with my 30-power loupe and marvel at the sharp, perfectly formed incisions made under great pressure at high speed.)

This and many more answers are in the three Renaissance of American Coinage books covering 1905-1921. The Lincoln cent is discussed in Vol 2 1909-1915. These were published 12 to 15 years ago - sufficient time for collectors to read them.

Edited February 25, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

18 minutes ago, RWB said:

This and many more answers are in the three Renaissance of American Coinage books covering 1905-1921. The Lincoln cent is discussed in Vol 2 1909-1915. These were published 12 to 15 years ago - sufficient time for collectors to read them.

Thanks much. You are never too old to learn.

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Thanks much. You are never too old to learn.

I'll eventually learn a little....

[Conder101]

On 2/25/2021 at 2:38 PM, RWB said:

These were published 12 to 15 years ago - sufficient time for collectors to read them.

I don't know, some of them are slow. 

[RWB]

6 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I don't know, some of them are slow. 

Maybe the next book should be written in emojis....?