NGC Green Label 2 2

[GoldFinger1969]

deleted

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[numisport]

19 hours ago, RWB said:

A "grade" is only the state of preservation - an objectively definable and measurable criteria. The others are, except for details, subjective opinions which might be of more of less importance to individual viewers.

Roger you are so right on the money. Unfortunately often times (especially older coins) a coin grade is really an appraisal as it seems. For instance look how many Bust halves and quarters could grade AU62 rather than MS62. Cabinet friction IMO is quite detrimental to overall appeal.

[Crawtomatic]

On 4/4/2021 at 10:05 AM, Alex in PA. said:

I wonder who those folks are and why they don't like a sticker on their slab?  More stickers means more value; right?

Surely I'm not the only one that's heard/read the complaints about the other sticker companies.  MAC & Wings are the 2 I can think of offhand without doing some Google or eBay listing research. 

WINGS actually serves a good purpose in my opinion - essentially the CAC equivalent for world coins - just not much market desirability for such a product.  More than likely due to the world coin market lacking in widget type coins sold sight unseen (to steal a descriptor from Condor).

MAC, on the other hand, is all over the place.  Way too many categories.  Categories that don't matter ("4.5 Steps", "RNBO", "90RD").  There doesn't appear to be a uniform method to where the sticker is applied to the holder AND they stack them.  So if they have 2-3 stickers to apply it starts to look like a race car.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, Crawtomatic said:

Surely I'm not the only one that's heard/read the complaints about the other sticker companies.  MAC & Wings are the 2 I can think of offhand without doing some Google or eBay listing research. WINGS actually serves a good purpose in my opinion - essentially the CAC equivalent for world coins - just not much market desirability for such a product.  More than likely due to the world coin market lacking in widget type coins sold sight unseen (to steal a descriptor from Condor).  MAC, on the other hand, is all over the place.  Way too many categories.  Categories that don't matter ("4.5 Steps", "RNBO", "90RD").  There doesn't appear to be a uniform method to where the sticker is applied to the holder AND they stack them.  So if they have 2-3 stickers to apply it starts to look like a race car.

The very name -- "MAC" -- is clearly designed to piggy-back on the CAC reputation.  And the entire premise -- to get your coin a small % of the boost in price to the next grade -- is really tawdry, IMO.

Honestly, the marketing piece could have come from The Onion. 

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The very name -- "MAC" -- is clearly designed to piggy-back on the CAC reputation.  And the entire premise -- to get your coin a small % of the boost in price to the next grade -- is really tawdry, IMO.

Honestly, the marketing piece could have come from The Onion. 

If you think the concept of  “a small boost in price to the next grade” is tawdry, I take it you’re opposed to plus grades (which can lead to even larger price boosts) as well.

[Henri Charriere]

I approve of plus grades, and believe stars serve a purpose. The more subjective qualities are best left to the eyes of the beholder.

[MarkFeld]

8 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I approve of plus grades, and believe stars serve a purpose. The more subjective qualities are best left to the eyes of the beholder.

“Stars” as in exceptional eye-appeal (or the lack of them) can be quite subjective.

[Henri Charriere]

11 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

“Stars” as in exceptional eye-appeal (or the lack of them) can be quite subjective.

As can be toning [but I cannot understand why VKurtB is unwilling to acquiesce and make an exception to truly tasteful iridescent toning which amplifies the natural and original Mint luster already there.]

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

If you think the concept of  “a small boost in price to the next grade” is tawdry, I take it you’re opposed to plus grades (which can lead to even larger price boosts) as well.

I'm agnostic on them, Mark, but at least the TPG assigning that grade is doing it as part of the initial grading.

MAC's entire focus from what I read is getting coin owners some % of the gap between 2 big grades at an inflection point by creating some "valuable" categories or descriptions.  It's going to lead to a Balkanization of labels if they are successful.

I harbor no ill will to MAC or any other similar company.  But I would Keep It Simple Stupid by simply creating a sticker like CAC indicating strong for the grade.  And then they should make a market in their coins, buying them like CAC does sight-unseen.

Edited April 5, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Just Bob]

On 4/4/2021 at 8:59 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

... if these coins are getting "additional scrutiny" by NGC...

Although it makes it seem that NGC is doing something different for RARCOA, it does not state anywhere that the "extra scrutiny" is by NGC. In fact, the site says, " Collectors will have the opportunity to recognize superior quality coins quickly and easily knowing they have undergone RARCOAS’s additional scrutiny AND certification process at NGC." (italics mine.)

Even the quote by Mark Salzberg does not state that the "extra scrutiny" is by NGC. In my opinion, if the graders knew who submitted the coins, no matter who it was, objectivity may be compromised.

My take is this: Rarcoa picks "choice" coins (which may or may not mean anything) and NGC agrees to give them their own special label - not special treatment. Modern Coin Mart , Rarcoa, and others hype the coins as "superior quality." Collectors pay up (maybe) for really nice coins (hopefully).

[GoldFinger1969]

8 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Although it makes it seem that NGC is doing something different for RARCOA, it does not state anywhere that the "extra scrutiny" is by NGC. In fact, the site says, " Collectors will have the opportunity to recognize superior quality coins quickly and easily knowing they have undergone RARCOAS’s additional scrutiny AND certification process at NGC." (italics mine.) Even the quote by Mark Salzberg does not state that the "extra scrutiny" is by NGC. In my opinion, if the graders knew who submitted the coins, no matter who it was, objectivity may be compromised. My take is this: Rarcoa picks "choice" coins (which may or may not mean anything) and NGC agrees to give them their own special label - not special treatment. Modern Coin Mart , Rarcoa, and others hype the coins as "superior quality." Collectors pay up (maybe) for really nice coins (hopefully).

Great observations, Bob....if somehow NGC does grade them (subjectively or otherwise) higher than non-RARCOA coins, it would show pretty easily.

What I would have liked was for RARCOA to just take regular NGC-graded coins and if THEY saw something exceptional in the coins AFTER NGC graded, then sticker them. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

9 hours ago, Just Bob said:

Although it makes it seem that NGC is doing something different for RARCOA, it does not state anywhere that the "extra scrutiny" is by NGC. In fact, the site says, " Collectors will have the opportunity to recognize superior quality coins quickly and easily knowing they have undergone RARCOAS’s additional scrutiny AND certification process at NGC." (italics mine.)

Even the quote by Mark Salzberg does not state that the "extra scrutiny" is by NGC. In my opinion, if the graders knew who submitted the coins, no matter who it was, objectivity may be compromised.

Good points Bob especially about objectivity being compromised. This is from MCM "These top-tier coins are then sent to NGC for certification and encapsulation with the NGC Green Label. Only coins that possess these exceptional features -- according to RARCOA's strict standards -- are awarded the NGC Green Label." This makes it sound like there are specific qualities a coin must have to receive a green label. If RARCOA is establishing their own standard and NGC is looking for these qualities/standards set by RARCOA, would they require an additional glance? I'm reading way too much into this

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What I would have liked was for RARCOA to just take regular NGC-graded coins and if THEY saw something exceptional in the coins AFTER NGC graded, then sticker them. 

RARCOA set the standards, are picking the coins and only their coins can get a green label. What's the point? Slap your sticker on it and be done.

Conder101 nailed from the get go "just another private dealer label".

Other than a possible reference to CAC why the green label. I feel like it's too subtle, how many people are going to differentiate between the muted green label and a standard brown. Seems like it's lacking on some pizazz. 

[GoldFinger1969]

4 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Good points Bob especially about objectivity being compromised. This is from MCM "These top-tier coins are then sent to NGC for certification and encapsulation with the NGC Green Label. Only coins that possess these exceptional features -- according to RARCOA's strict standards -- are awarded the NGC Green Label." This makes it sound like there are specific qualities a coin must have to receive a green label. If RARCOA is establishing their own standard and NGC is looking for these qualities/standards set by RARCOA, would they require an additional glance? I'm reading way too much into this

I think so....RARCOA is choosing the coins based on their aesthetics including some attributes that might not be incorporated into a grade.  Then NGC does the grading.

If RARCOA thinks that having a bagmark on the Morgan Liberty's nose is aesthetically appealing, then they are going to look for those with bagmarks on her nose and not send in those without a mark on the nose.  Then NGC grades them and can give a hoot about a bagmark on the nose relative to the chin, face, fields, etc.

Presumably, RARCOA is choosing based on attributes that matter.  The key to me is these coins are geared to the retail market which tends to skew younger, more novices, and not serious/dedicated collectors.

We'll see........

[Henri Charriere]

[Muted green labels.  Standard brown.  Colors covering the entire spectrum can't be too far behind.  The ultraviolet ones which fluoresce in the dark will be the most valuable.]

[Alex in PA.]

14 hours ago, Just Bob said:

Rarcoa, and others hype the coins as "superior quality." Collectors pay up (maybe) for really nice coins (hopefully).

I have heard this some where before but I cannot remember where.  

[GoldFinger1969]

25 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

I have heard this some where before but I cannot remember where.  

Hey, I get it....in the past, people paid up based on what they saw with their eyes and not what the label said.  "Buy the coin, not the label."  

And I get that what I see in a Saint you might not.  And I want to be paid for that attribute and you are saying I am $200 too high in price and take that coin and stick it.

And sometimes the difference in price between 1 grade is freakin' astronomical (check out the FRANKLIN GRADEFLATION thread I've posted here that is also over ATS).

But if I bought an MS66 Saint for $3,000 and I know that an MS67 is $12,000.....I'm not necessarily entitled to just say that the other coin is twice as good as mine and I am entitled to $6,000.  Maybe my coin has hidden attributes and I can $3,200 or $3,400 for it.  Maybe I get a CAC sticker and I can get $4,000 for the coin.

But just because the price jumps alot at MS67 doesn't mean my coin should be graded or sell closer to it in price.  Maybe the coin isn't 4x as good as mine, maybe only 2x.  But the coin's quality -- and the population census -- dictate what the price will be. 

Otherwise, you have market grading on a curve....and it leads to gradeflation and ultimately, mispricings and lots of unhappy collectors IMO.

[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

"Buy the coin, not the label."  

I have seen this and the declaration, in substance: never a slave to any label will I be, but the truth is something else entirely for Set Registrants like me.

I am 70.  I reside in the hoosegow called New York City.  Raw oysters and clams on the half shell I have no problem with.  Raw roosters, pixelated, however well-defined the image, are out of the question -- in the highest grades. There are things graders can see that are beyond my limited line of sight.

And talking about graders, how many TPGS are there?  

Virtually impossible to buy raw, lacking the confidence to purchase a lesser grading party's "opinion," I am reduced to relying on others, reputable or not, to come through for me. [For the most part, they have.  But like anything else, e.g. a cross-grade refusal between titans, nothing is guaranteed.]

I am an unwitting member of the encapsulation caste.  By its very nature, your compilation is incapable of completion where a possibility, however unlikely, exists that a coin bequeathed to a child scores of years ago, may be submitted, at any time, which exceeds the strong strike and exceptional eye appeal of your formerly magnificent pop. 1/0 specimen.

Quintus Arrius, formerly an entity endowed with free will, is in reality a slave to a label and the opinion that comes along with it and there is nothing he, or anyone else, can do about it.

*       *       *

 

[Crawtomatic]

20 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What I would have liked was for RARCOA to just take regular NGC-graded coins and if THEY saw something exceptional in the coins AFTER NGC graded, then sticker them. 

Oh, but what if they are taking regular NGC graded coins that they see something exceptional in and instead of stickering them they're sending them back to NGC to be re-holdered with their custom label?

That would be an easy way to build up inventory without having to source a lot of exceptional raw coins.  The re-holder process doesn't include regrading so it's pretty straightforward and cost efficient.  Then RARCOA gets the coin back and upcharges for their opinion which is displayed by the custom label.

It's a slightly different business model than CAC since coin owners cannot submit for their opinion and a sticker.  Their website is baby fresh right now.  Just the shell, some reference pages, but no inventory listed.  So just speculation on my part.

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

deleted

 

Understood. 😉

[VKurtB]

On 4/4/2021 at 9:45 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess the $64,000 Question is:  can outstanding eye appeal, razar-sharp strike, booming luster, and attractive toning impact a grade ?

 

Not only CAN they impact a grade, when done correctly, and considered together, they ARE 3/4 of the grade. The only remaining component is “nick picking”.

[Henri Charriere]

26 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Not only CAN they impact a grade, when done correctly, and considered together, they ARE 3/4 of the grade. The only remaining component is “nick picking”.

[Great to hear your voice. I thought the recent spate of severe storms had gotten to you.  Now, getting back to GF's $64K question -- and your reply -- you still absolutely, positively won't buy an encapsulated coin not in hand, sight unseen beyond a descriptive listing and a well-defined image provided courtesy of the owner?]

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Not only CAN they impact a grade, when done correctly, and considered together, they ARE 3/4 of the grade. The only remaining component is “nick picking”.

Well....you have nicks on the rim....bagmarks on the fields (does the coin have 3 or 4 small ones, or 10-12 bigger bag marks).....are bagmarks/nicks on important features or off to the side.....any gouges, deep cuts anywhere.....are the high-points free of ANY WEAR including "bag wear" even if the coin wasn't circulated ?

[VKurtB]

21 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Great to hear your voice. I thought the recent spate of severe storms had gotten to you.  Now, getting back to GF's $64K question -- and your reply -- you still absolutely, positively won't buy an encapsulated coin not in hand, sight unseen beyond a descriptive listing and a well-defined image provided courtesy of the owner?]

Nope, I spent the majority of my career in the photographic business and I know how deceptive photos often are. 

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Nope, I spent the majority of my career in the photographic business and I know how deceptive photos often are. 

What about the pictures on HA ?  Those are outstanding...high-def....can zoom in....they are also consistent in how they take them.

I realize and have seen how lighting and angles can hide things but I think their pics really are fair to the buyer and seller.  A different set of angled shots with the lighting adjusted would be the only thing I'd improve on. 

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969  I have the utmost respect for VKurtB. Imagine the herculean task -- coins purchased in pristine condition directly from Mints, excepted -- of assembling a collection of coins, hand-picked and examined presumably loose and in their raw state, over the course of a lifetime.  As you know, I have dozens of Roosters none of which could have been obtained without deviating from this seasoned, veteran member's strict, self-imposed protocol.  That, in itself is worthy of consideration for a lifetime achievement award, particularly in this day and age.  Adopting this approach means never having to say you're sorry.

[GoldFinger1969]

QA, what are your thoughts about buying from online pics ?

Personally, I'm OK buying that way for most coins.  I'm not sure I'd buy a coin costing $3,000 or more that way without a return policy.  But less-expensive stuff, no problem.

That's one thing the TPGs and the label make a big difference on.  If the grade is solid and the pics look good, it's highly unlikely you're going to find a major flaw or deviation that makes you want to return the coin.

[Henri Charriere]

23 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, what are your thoughts about buying from online pics ?

Personally, I'm OK buying that way for most coins.  I'm not sure I'd buy a coin costing $3,000 or more that way without a return policy.  But less-expensive stuff, no problem.

That's one thing the TPGs and the label make a big difference on.  If the grade is solid and the pics look good, it's highly unlikely you're going to find a major flaw or deviation that makes you want to return the coin.

I have no problem buying from on-line pictures. Every Rooster I bought raw involved a judgment call. Now I place my trust in TPGS, implicitly.  If I have made any errors, the run-up in gold prices has erased them. My experience, satisfaction and comfort level parallels your own.  My only problem right now is general non-availability of upgrades.  Other than that, I am fine with the entire process and thus far have not experienced any problems.

[VKurtB]

On 4/9/2021 at 5:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What about the pictures on HA ?  Those are outstanding...high-def....can zoom in....they are also consistent in how they take them.

I realize and have seen how lighting and angles can hide things but I think their pics really are fair to the buyer and seller.  A different set of angled shots with the lighting adjusted would be the only thing I'd improve on. 

HA (and S-B) are frequently exceptions. Most of their pics are accurate representations of the coin in hand, but not all are. Some even make a coin look far WORSE than it is. I bought a S-B coin at the 2018 Philly ANA show that I went and looked at in my hand in the lot preview room, even though it looked pretty nasty in the catalog. I liked it enough to buy it.

[VKurtB]

18 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I have no problem buying from on-line pictures. Every Rooster I bought raw involved a judgment call. Now I place my trust in TPGS, implicitly.  If I have made any errors, the run-up in gold prices has erased them. My experience, satisfaction and comfort level parallels your own.  My only problem right now is general non-availability of upgrades.  Other than that, I am fine with the entire process and thus far have not experienced any problems.

Your case may be special. You’re looking at registry quality coins of a short series that is not all that widely collected, especially stateside. And stateside is where the twin fetishes of both registry participation and slabbed coins find their zenith. This convinces me that there are raw examples of the Coq Marianne that match your standards that may never reach your radar. 

[Henri Charriere]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Your case may be special. You’re looking at registry quality coins of a short series that is not all that widely collected, especially stateside. And stateside is where the twin fetishes of both registry participation and slabbed coins find their zenith. This convinces me that there are raw examples of the Coq Marianne that match your standards that may never reach your radar. 

Yes, and they are languishing in countries where the certification craze is still in its infancy, driven largely by U.S. market collector demand.