Dumb question: shopping for proofs 0

[Bubblebling]

Greetings. As a newbie company, I'm thinking that just working/collecting proofs would be safer. I should not have to be so concerned about coin grading.

But here are a couple of questions for you:

When buying proofs, are you all that concerned about the grade? Most proofs are going to be high grade. And without actually having the proof in hand, it will be very difficult to accurately grade a proof on eBay.

To make matters worse, many of the proofs are in proof sets. These are set in fancy plastic or cardboard folders, etc. It is highly doubtful that you can accurately appraise the grades of these coins, sight unseen.

So my question is, re proof buying, Do you mostly go with "A proof is a proof is a proof"?

Or are you very concerned about a proofs (or set of proofs) grade, when buying proofs?

For example, let's say you have been looking for a certain proof that doesn't come on the market all  that often. But when you finally come across one for sale, would you just try to get it, or do you fuss over the possible grading? What if it is still in original govt packaging? Would you be more apt to just try and get it?

Sorry for the dumb questions. Thank you.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Bubblebling
Have I gotten kicked off your forums?

[MarkFeld]

Most collectors care about some combination of quality and eye appeal.
You should find ways to buy coins in person, especially if you’re going to buy ungraded ones. To do otherwise would be trying to beat huge odds against you. And eventually, if not quickly, you’d end up losing.

Edited January 8, 2021 by MarkFeld

[JKK]

If you need to ask these questions, I hope for your sake you aren't even contemplating trying to make money as a coin dealer. Not for years. I'm not faulting you for asking, just pointing out that this is like a home handyman deciding suddenly to make a living as a professional plumber. If you try anyway before you develop some basic understanding of how coins are bought and sold, remember: you were bluntly warned by more than one person.

Proofs grade from PR-45 or so (circulated proof) to PR-70 (a proof perfect to the scrutiny of, I think it's a 10x loupe). It depends how valuable the proof is. I have an 1891 LHN that so happens I bought from Mark some years back, slabbed PR-65. That's high. I think the highest yet slabbed is only one grade higher. In that case, yes, we care a lot about the grade because it would have cost me a fair bit more to buy a PR-66 of the same coin; only 2000 were minted to begin with. But if it's a 1990 proof set, it might not matter as much because I'm pretty confident those are ho-hum common.

In any case, whether people will buy them will depend on how well they can view them and what you charge for them. And the short answer there is that unless you get most of them for virtually nothing--and there are ways to do that, at least with the common ones--rarely will someone pay you enough for them to be worth the effort and tied-up capital.

Edited January 8, 2021 by JKK

[Bubblebling]

Hi Mark. Oh, you are right. I'm going to just stick to doing business on eBay. This is why I am thinking of just going with proofs. To me, a proof, esp if still in original packaging, is sort of already graded. You know that it is a high grade coin.

But you are right. Buying ungraded coins sight unseen is a huge trap. If I ever got into buying non proofs, I would have to just buy slabs. Slabs are harder to sell, tho. Folks think that there is a $20 or $30 dollar markup on them.

[MarkFeld]

25 minutes ago, Bubblebling said:

Hi Mark. Oh, you are right. I'm going to just stick to doing business on eBay. This is why I am thinking of just going with proofs. To me, a proof, esp if still in original packaging, is sort of already graded. You know that it is a high grade coin.

But you are right. Buying ungraded coins sight unseen is a huge trap. If I ever got into buying non proofs, I would have to just buy slabs. Slabs are harder to sell, tho. Folks think that there is a $20 or $30 dollar markup on them.

Not all proofs in original packaging are high grade. They can have hairlines, stains, spots, discoloration, cloudiness, splotches and so on. Virtually all of them have at least some such flaws.

Edited January 8, 2021 by MarkFeld

[RWB]

Bubblebling - Let's do some basic coin knowledge. It will help you in your business plan. Answer the following questions:

1. What is/are the difference(s) between modern proof coins and modern uncirculated coins?

2. How are modern proof coins made?

3. What is a "reverse proof?"

4. What is the best way to clean a proof coin?

5. What is a "proof-like" coin?

It should take you less than 5 minutes to correctly answer the questions.

Edited January 8, 2021 by RWB

[JT2]

55 minutes ago, Bubblebling said:

g, Do you mostly go with "A proof is a proof is a proof"?

HUMMMM  well as you can see they are not all equal......

[MarkFeld]

5 minutes ago, JT2 said:

HUMMMM  well as you can see they are not all equal......

I’m pretty sure he’s talking about 1950 and later Proofs, though they aren’t all created equally, either.

[Bubblebling]

4 hours ago, JT2 said:

HUMMMM  well as you can see they are not all equal......

Hi JT2. This is just the information I was looking for. Thank you very much. Re that 1913 buffalo, do you think that most of the buffalo proofs from that year look roughly like this? Or do you feel that there should be better examples of this proof? And unless a client asks you for one, would you just skip this proof in general?

[Bubblebling]

4 hours ago, RWB said:

Bubblebling - Let's do some basic coin knowledge. It will help you in your business plan. Answer the following questions:

1. What is/are the difference(s) between modern proof coins and modern uncirculated coins?

2. How are modern proof coins made?

3. What is a "reverse proof?"

4. What is the best way to clean a proof coin?

5. What is a "proof-like" coin?

It should take you less than 5 minutes to correctly answer the questions.

Hi RWB.

It should take me less than 5 minutes to answer your questions.

Yeah, if NGC doesn't/didn't have computer problems this morning. Which they did.

I see you are testing me to see how clueless I am about coins. Don't worry, I can answer your questions off the top of my head. I'm not the professionals that you all are, but I do know something about coins. And you can see that I am learning every day with all your help.

Questions one and two are pretty much the same. Modern proofs are made with special dies. The proofs are made (usually, I am finding out now), to higher specs and finishes. And of course, the proofs are limited editions for most series.

A reverse proof is a proof where the fields on the coin are reversed. This can result in a beautiful coin. These coins are highly sought after by collectors.

The best way to clean a proof? Ha ha. Trick question, right? You don't clean a proof.

What is a "proof-like" coin?

There is no such grade. This is a marketing gimmick by a seller.

A coin is either a proof, or it isn't.

So there you go. How did I do? I know I still need to learn a lot, tho.

Thanks for the quiz..

[JT2]

23 minutes ago, Bubblebling said:

do you think that most of the buffalo proofs from that year look roughly like this? Or do you feel that there should be better examples of this proof?

Not all will look this way you can find that some high grade buffalo's will tone to lovely hues of aqua, rose, and gold.  some will stay shinny it all depends on how they were stored and what environment they were in.  the Indian's once they go brown i have found will tone the same way. where if you find them in the RB category they may have a crackling toning on them which is not my preference. However it may be someone else's.  where as the Reds can really look firery..

[JT2]

30 minutes ago, Bubblebling said:

would you just skip this proof in general?

i would skip most modern proofs 50 ish through now.. unless they were Ultra Cameos.  most through the 50 and 60 in brillant proof or only like $5 - $10 each... 

[RWB]

Bubblebling,

My purpose is the help you focus on the basic things you have to know in order to have a fair chance at being successful, even on a very modest scale. Here are the five questions, your answers and my comments.

 You got two points out of five. As a buyer or seller you will have a special status among many of your potential customers. You must know this kind of basic information before you open your ebay shop door, or you will be unable to clearly describe your coins, or understand what you are buying. I, personally, want you to succeed; you have much to do in my opinion.

1. What is/are the difference(s) between modern proof coins and modern uncirculated coins?

Questions one and two are pretty much the same.

0-Credit. Question not answered.

Uncirculated coins are struck once on a high speed horizontal coinage press at sufficient pressure to reproduce the design satisfactorily. Dies receive no special polishing or other treatment. They fall into a collection bin, then pass through a series of riddlers to remove defective pieces, and eventually dumped into large packages of high strength plastic. They are not physically counted or inspected but accounted for by aggregate weight.

Proof coins usually have highly polished, mirror-like fields. They are struck multiple time with a slower press at higher than normal pressure in order to bring up as much detail as possible. Proofs are not allowed to touch each other or anything except specially designed surfaces. They are individually inspected, but manipulated and packaged by machine.

2. How are modern proof coins made?

Modern proofs are made with special dies. The proofs are made (usually, I am finding out now), to higher specs and finishes. And of course, the proofs are limited editions for most series.

1/2-Credit. Your response is incomplete and lacks detail.

Most modern proof s of ordinary circulating designs are made using dies with highly polished fields and frosted relief devices. Dies are cut by automated machinery, the fields polished by machine, then manually inspected, and possibly retouched if necessary. Frosting is applied with an etching laser that makes tiny pits in areas that will appear frosted on the coin.

3. What is a "reverse proof?"

A reverse proof is a proof where the fields on the coin are reversed. This can result in a beautiful coin. These coins are highly sought after by collectors.

1/2-Credit. Answer ambiguous.

Stating “the fields on the coin are reversed” is not clear. Do you mean the fields are backwards, or something else. A conventional proof has polished fields and frosted devices (relief). A reverse proof has frosted fields and polished devices. (Clarity of communication is critical when selling or buying – especially when everything is written and there is no opportunity to explain.)

4. What is the best way to clean a proof coin?

You don't clean a proof.

Full Credit. Correct.

5. What is a "proof-like" coin?

A coin is either a proof, or it isn't. There is no such grade. This is a marketing gimmick by a seller.

0-Credit. Question not answered.

“Proof” is not a grade either – it is a method of manufacture. “Proof-like” is a term commonly used to describe a coin that has a somewhat shiny or mirror-like field. The relief can be either frosted, normal or something in between. “Proof-like” fields are created when a normal dies is lightly polished to remove cracks or other defects. If properly completed, this kind of repair allows a die to be returned to service – possible for many thousands of additional strikes.

Edited January 9, 2021 by RWB

[Bubblebling]

Hi RWB. Thank you for your enlightenment. I can see that you enjoy numismatics, and that you hope that I do well. Thank you! Lots of members are saying, "Fuhget it". They must of forgotten that they had to start learning about coins once upon a time themselves. Must of been a long time ago.

To be honest, I don't enjoy all the trivia type facts about how the coins were made, etc. Right now I am concentrating on calculating how much I should pay for a coin, and how much I can hope to get for it. Regardless of how it was made, etc.

I know some of these facts are fun facts to know. At least to some. All I want to know is how much should I pay for a coin, and how much can I get for it. I don't think my customers are really going to care if I am reading The Fun Facts about US Coins book. In this business, it's all about money.

Of course I need to know the basics. I am studying and learning every day. With the help of (some) of the members and staff on here. Thank you to all well wishers and tutors.

Right now, I am mostly working on pricing. This is the most critical skill that I need to develop right now. I'm never going to suggest that I am a coin "expert" anyways. I will defer all technical questions to you people.

Other than learning the coins series, dates, mintages, silver content, collector desirability, rarety, grade, etc, (which is a lot right there), all I really care about is how much will you take for that coin? And how much do I think that I can sell it for. I try to keep it as simple as possible. Which is not easy in the coin biz, as you know.

I'm never going to be a full service broker anyways. I don't care about pennies and nickles, for example. We all should have our own niche. It prob would take the greater part of a whole lifetime to know all the US coins, medallions, etc.

 I'm not planning on having a big business. Pretty much a small time collector/seller. I'm not interested in collecting a certain series, or offering a lot of different coins. I focus on what coins I feel are worth the most, and look the nicest. Quarters only, at this point. That's about it.

Having said this, I would love to get one of those big estate sale lots. They look like a lot of fun. Possible profit, too. Of course the sellers say that they have no clue what all they are selling. Sure! We believe that, right? ;-)

 

 

[JKK]

The hot mess level increases. Evaluating coins is key to making a profit buying and selling them. An essential aspect of evaluating coins is "all the trivia type facts about how coins are made, etc."

[Bubblebling]

True, evaluating coins is key. I get this much. What about the folks who only buy slabs? I suppose they can be taken advantage of too, but if they have some experience, and know what they are doing, I don't see lots of risk for them, unless they overpay for something. Esp if they only buy from trusted sources.

The real risk comes in with buying and selling rare and highly valuable coins. Not much risk in buying 99 cent wooden nickles, unless you are buying them by the rolls and lots.

[Woods020]

Ask yourself this bubblebling: why is everyone telling me this is a bad idea? There are only a few possibilities. 
 

1. it is simply a bad idea, and the members of this board are kind enough to tell you so. They don’t want you to lose money which will turn you away from the hobby, or screw others and turn them away when you sell. 
 

2. The other members are dealers and don’t want competition. I can tell you this isn’t the case. Everyone who has given you this advice buys way way way more than they sell. If anything more good dealers would help them collect. 
 

3. It’s a conspiracy and they have all had a side meeting and decided to screw with you by all saying don’t do it. Seems unlikely unless your hat of choice is made of tin foil. 
 

Seriously people are trying to protect you and the hobby. And I don’t think you realize the value of the advice and who it is coming from. I’m a nobody in this hobby, but you have unknowingly gotten advice from the some of the best. Literally some of them have written the book on the subject. Where else are you going to get free advice from the experts in a field and say no thanks?

[JKK]

Well, obviously you have no consumer or student loan debt (excellent!), and equally obviously you have substantial personal savings as well as suitable retirement savings for your phase of life (good work), so if you want to trade $600 and dozens of hours for probably $500, indeed there probably is no harm and it's money you can afford to lose. Might as well go for it, in that case, and consider the $100, plus $60 or so for what you could reasonably have expected to make investing it, and loss of time as your tuition. This might enable you to make money doing it later on in life, or you might learn other helpful lessons that could repay your loss later.

[Bubblebling]

I will let you all know how I am making out. Fair enough?

Let's just call it an experiment. I think you will all agree, there is not much downside risk involved. At least not now. Like you all seem to think there is. You might think we are talking about a 200,000 dollar investment here. Even if I lost all of my $600 investment, which is doubtful, this would not be a huge loss. I don't get it.

I guess no one should even think about buying and selling coins unless they have deep pockets, and years of experience and knowledge. Right?

Hmmmmm.......

[MarkFeld]

6 minutes ago, Bubblebling said:

I will let you all know how I am making out. Fair enough?

Let's just call it an experiment. I think you will all agree, there is not much downside risk involved. At least not now. Like you all seem to think there is. You might think we are talking about a 200,000 dollar investment here. Even if I lost all of my $600 investment, which is doubtful, this would not be a huge loss. I don't get it.

I guess no one should even think about buying and selling coins unless they have deep pockets, and years of experience and knowledge. Right?

Hmmmmm.......

My guess is that if you’d asked about buying some coins, instead of starting a business, the responses would have been quite different. Hopefully, you can understand why.

[JT2]

38 minutes ago, Bubblebling said:

Even if I lost all of my $600 investment, which is doubtful, this would not be a huge loss. I don't get it.

If you are buying coins and think that you are going to make a quick turn around and make money you will be sadly mistaken.  I would tell  you to take your $600 and put it in the savings account and you will make out better....For example I bought a very nice MS 64 1927 D peace dollar at a show for $1100 and went 6 or 7 tables down the row and they guy offered me $700 for it........ i told him i just bought it for 11 and he said he couldnt get anywhere near that price.......just an example... 

[RWB]

Bubblebling,

It's not about what you "enjoy." You said you want to start a business. That means you must know about the items you are selling - at least the basics. For modern proof coins, it appears you do not have the fundamental knowledge to clearly describe them or understand the differences. You are obviously capable of learning this, if you want to.

You asked for their input --- please accept their suggestions.You asked for business perspectives from members, and that is what they are giving you. Everyone here is trying to help you face reality and succeed.