From Mine to Mint 2 2

[Hoghead515]

Just now, GoldFinger1969 said:

      

It's a GREAT reference book, the only thing is it doesn't come in hardcover.  But a MUST if you have interest in gold coins in general and Saints specifically.

If you read the SAINT GAUDENS DE thread here, that'll give you a good flavor for what's in the book.  But basically you have on average 5-7 pages on every year/mintage of Saint-Gaudens coin plus special sections and longer ones on special coins and patterns. 

I cant wait to get my first gold coin. I got to reading this other book and I'm to the part thats talking about the gold being mined and took in to the mint.  I got 3 little vials of gold nuggets. Roughly 3 grams sorted out in different sizes. Im so excited about reading it I took those vials out sitting here admiring it and shaking it a little. Then ill read a few more minutes and then shake my gold again and so on. Lol. Just looking at those little vials of gold gets me to thinking of how hard those miners worked back in those days to get those small amounts. Things like that just amaze me so much. Im like a kid when it comes to this kind of stuff. I wish I'd got into this hobby when I was a teenager. I wasted my younger years. 

[Hoghead515]

22 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

 

Sorry. Accidentally sent that post twice. Had to erase the second one. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Hoghead515

[Hoghead515]

Another thing I learned. I never knew back in those early years that we got our gold from so many countries.  I always thought that it was mostly mined locally. It came from all over. I learned so many things from this book already and I'm only on page 23. 

[Henri Charriere]

17 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Another thing I learned. I never knew back in those early years that we got our gold from so many countries.  I always thought that it was mostly mined locally. It came from all over. I learned so many things from this book already and I'm only on page 23. 

Ah-h-h, another happy satisfied customer!  And authors truly appreciate positive feedback on their labors of love.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

Another thing I learned. I never knew back in those early years that we got our gold from so many countries.  I always thought that it was mostly mined locally. It came from all over. I learned so many things from this book already and I'm only on page 23. 

I have to re-read the book.  Remember, the impetus for Double Eagles (Liberty DE's first, then Saint-Gaudens') was because we had the California and Yukon Gold strikes.  As you may learn from FMTM or will learn from S-G DE, large denomination gold coins weren't used that much in regular commerce and by most people.  But it served a need in using the mined gold. 

$5 and smaller gold coins didn't do the trick, you needed Eagles and Double Eagles.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I cant wait to get my first gold coin.... I wish I'd got into this hobby when I was a teenager. I wasted my younger years. 

We all do.......when I look back when I had plenty of $$$ and could have bought MS65 Saints for $1,000 and under........and better yet, modern gold coins and proofs for under $400 !!

Oh well, if BitCoin is going to $150,000 then maybe it drags gold up to $5,000 and today's prices are a bargain.  

[RWB]

It would be funny and ironic to see gold stackers also buying "crypto currency." I.e., hard money advocates buying vapor money...!

[Just Bob]

On 12/22/2020 at 1:41 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I probably will get it and read up on them first.

That is the way to collect. There is an old adage in coin collecting that states, "Buy the book before the coin." If you have the knowledge beforehand, you are way ahead of the game.

[RWB]

12 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

That is the way to collect. There is an old adage in coin collecting that states, "Buy the book before the coin." If you have the knowledge beforehand, you are way ahead of the game.

Agreed -- It is also critical to acquire the basic knowledge necessary to understand the specifics mentioned in specialty publications.

That was part of the purpose of From Mine to Mint: put the 'basics' in one place. Explain the basics. Nurture truth. Having a source for the How and Why, means collectors can share a common understand of the mechanical and organizational structures common to nearly all US coins.

[ldhair]

From Mine to Mint is the best book I have bought in many years. The searchable CD turned the book into a great tool for me. It's fun to be able to zoom in and study one subject. 

[Hoghead515]

It is a very great book so far. I been taking my time reading it and studying as I read. Sometimes looking up what certain words mean or other things. Im just now on the floor plans. I made it to the San Francisco mint before I turned in. Im going to read it all the way thru the first time then read thru with the cd. Or should I do it vice versa?   It is an amazing book. I never dreamed they was that advanced in chemistry and technology in the 1800s.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/22/2020 at 8:14 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I cant wait to get my first gold coin. I got to reading this other book and I'm to the part thats talking about the gold being mined and took in to the mint.  

Don't forget David Bowers book on Double Eagles....a great reference book and also good to read.  Covers both Liberty Head and Saint-Gaudens DEs....but with much less depth than Roger does in his book. 

It's a Red Book from Whitman.

Edited December 26, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, ldhair said:

From Mine to Mint is the best book I have bought in many years. The searchable CD turned the book into a great tool for me. It's fun to be able to zoom in and study one subject. 

I don't think I got that CD.....what's it do ?

[Hoghead515]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't think I got that CD.....what's it do ?

I haven't played it yet myself. Im gonna read it all the way through first. Im saving it as a surprise. It always helps me to read something twice. Then when I play the CD ill understand it better. 

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't think I got that CD.....what's it do ?

The FMTM CD comes with the book - it's not sold separately. (If you bought a new copy from a book seller it would have had the CD inside the clear shrink wrap, with the CD label facing outward. The CD has some ugly colors on the label. This makes it easy to see if someone broke up the original package to illicitly sell the CD separately.)

It includes a full resolution PDF of the book, and a low resolution version for phones and similar small-scree devices. It is searchable by any word, phrase or combination of words or number the users desires. In effect, it is a word-by-word index in electronic format.

[GoldFinger1969]

I don't see it...I either lost it or I never got it when I bought the book.  I'm not gonna worry.....I need to re-read the book and plan to shortly.  Finishing up some RED BOOKS and gonna re-hit some chapters in your DE magnus opus. 

[Hoghead515]

I absolutely love it. I just finished all the floor plans of the mints and assay offices and the duties of the officials and workers. Very interesting. If I hadn't read this book I'd have never known they minted gold coins in South Carolina and Georgia. Also I never thought about it before how advanced they was in technology in those days. I knew they made stuff but I never really thought about it before of them being that advanced. I guess because they was still in horse and buggy. There was some very intelligent people in those days. 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's some of my current and recent reading:

Edited December 28, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

3 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I absolutely love it. I just finished all the floor plans of the mints and assay offices and the duties of the officials and workers. Very interesting. If I hadn't read this book I'd have never known they minted gold coins in South Carolina and Georgia. Also I never thought about it before how advanced they was in technology in those days. I knew they made stuff but I never really thought about it before of them being that advanced. I guess because they was still in horse and buggy. There was some very intelligent people in those days.

These comments highlight a primary reason for writing FMTM. Awareness and understanding of the machinery and technology in use, allows us to relate to the coins and medals US Mints made.

Much of the book comes from my own questions as a beginning collector long ago (and far away...) In its own way the book is filled with answers to my ancient questions - and with many answers that were a surprise. The book also raises new questions, and I hope to answer some of these in FMTM-2 - some day.

[Hoghead515]

Thank you for writing it. I've always had a few of those questions myself. As I've been reading I've been trying to trying to put myself in their shoes back in those days. I'd also like to learn one day about theyre transportation in every thing. The dangers and struggles of transportation of metals and miners raw gold and so on. Its all very interesting. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Hoghead515

[Hoghead515]

I just got done with the rules and regulations section. Gonna turn in and get ready for work tomorrow. I was just curious if there is any know employees of the mint who has been put to death for embezzlement or any other like crime.  Or sentenced to prison to hard labor. I know that rule would sure break me from it in those days. I wouldn't do anything like that anyway but have that posted in front of ya will keep an honest man honest for sure. 

[GoldFinger1969]

28 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

I just got done with the rules and regulations section. Gonna turn in and get ready for work tomorrow. I was just curious if there is any know employees of the mint who has been put to death for embezzlement or any other like crime.  Or sentenced to prison to hard labor. I know that rule would sure break me from it in those days. I wouldn't do anything like that anyway but have that posted in front of ya will keep an honest man honest for sure. 

I've never heard of any death penalty for employees guilty of theft, but I'll defer to Roger.

I know a few people were convicted over the years for stealing, embezzlment, maybe even just because of discrepancies in the books when they were innocent.

One unsolved case involves the theft of an entire bag -- 250 coins, $5,000 at the time -- of 1928 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles in the mid-1930's.  Roger and I have posted on that in the book thread.  Nobody ever caught, no suspects.  The Mint Superintendent was personally liable even though innocent until Congress passed legislation taking him off the hook in the early-1940's.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Death sounds a little harsh maybe just chop off a hand or two. A few hours labor on that RM screw press oughta do it.

[Hoghead515]

49 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Death sounds a little harsh maybe just chop off a hand or two. A few hours labor on that RM screw press oughta do it.

Thats what I thought. Thats why I wondered if anyone ever got the death sentence.  They mentioned it in the rules. Id say you probably would really have to mess up. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

32 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Thats what I thought. Thats why I wondered if anyone ever got the death sentence.  They mentioned it in the rules. Id say you probably would really have to mess up. 

I probably would have left after they took away my drink money, let alone the threat of DEATH if I took anything. If I did work at a mint I'd still be pretty tempted, even if the max penalty was

[GoldFinger1969]

I don't believe you can get the death penalty for a non-capital crime.  Theft doesn't bring the death penalty.

Probably 20 years prison, even for the lucky guy who swiped the bag of 250 1928 Saint-Gaudens DE's.

Edited December 29, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

11 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I just got done with the rules and regulations section. Gonna turn in and get ready for work tomorrow. I was just curious if there is any know employees of the mint who has been put to death for embezzlement or any other like crime.  Or sentenced to prison to hard labor. I know that rule would sure break me from it in those days. I wouldn't do anything like that anyway but have that posted in front of ya will keep an honest man honest for sure. 

There is a small section near the back of FMTM listing some of the notable defalcations from U.S. Mints. Most thefts were of a few coins by a workman. Punishment was handled administratively - typically restitution and dismissal without a reference letter. Even the suspicion of theft was grounds for dismissal - and the only appear was to the Director or Secretary of Treasury. Neither was likely to overturn a Mint Superintendent's decision.

Treasury always maintained a pubic face of impregnability of mints and treasury facilities. However, until the early 20th century, our mints could have been easily overwhelmed by a small band (maybe Duran Duran with accordions?) of careful thieves.

As far as I've seen, no US citizen was put to death for embezzling from the Mint or Treasury. when prosecuted, jail terms of 5 to 15 years seem prevalent. Some thieves took their gains and left the country before USSS could find them.

[Hoghead515]

The workers sure did rob the heck out of the mints and assay offices didn't they. And mostly got away with it. I never did see why people do that. I never did want nothing if I had to steal it. Ive never stole a dime in my whole life. If they dumped a truck load of gold in my yard and left me with it I wouldn't take a crumb of it. I just got done reading pg 224 Loses of Depositors Gold. Alot of those old miners risked they're lives for that gold. Worked their fingers to the bones to try feed theyre families. I couldn't bring myself that low to do them like that. Makes me mad knowing them weight clerks like James Negus pretty much got rich stealing off them hard working people. It really is personal to me because I've had so much stole off me over the years. I had a brand new 2000 Honda 400EX stole off me few years back. No insurance and still owed $5000 on it. Had to pay it off while some theif was out riding it. 

[GoldFinger1969]

18 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

The workers sure did rob the heck out of the mints and assay offices didn't they. And mostly got away with it. 

Actually, considering the proximity to easy money (gold), it appears that rank theft from the mint was pretty low.  I have to re-read any relevant sections in FMTM but they seem to have had pretty good controls. That bag of stolen 1928 Saints from the Philly Mint is one of the biggest I know of, though I believe the SanFran and Denver Mints had their own famous heists (since rumoured to have been found in various hoards).

Even with proper screening, you can't get 100% honest people working in a mint anymore than you can in a bank or a drug store of the times.  The modern methods to screen workers daily for even minute traces of gold or PMs were not available back then. 

Employee theft was and is part of the cost of doing business, sadly.

[Hoghead515]

Yep. I agree with you. Its sad to say there has always been and will always be thieves. I just read about that bag of double eagles a few minutes ago. It mentioned it in this book. I guess the reason they noticed it was because of the dust wasn't it ?  They could tell someone had been there due to the pattern of the dust trail being worn off.