I Just Don't Understand... 2 2

[Moxie15]

...why so many people have such a hard time with they way @Insider sometimes presents things. I think that every profession I have learned or tried to learn in my life has used similar techniques in training and testing. There were two such tests that used his style that I remember well because I did so poorly on them. The first was to establish if one had talent and basic knowledge to enter a machinist apprenticeship. It had pictures exactly like Insider's with a one line question like 'What caused these marks?' or 'Are these marks proper?' The pictures were invariably close ups of one particular area of a piece, never the complete piece, not in good focus, blurry around the edges, and had horrible shading and color balance. If you truly knew what you were doing it was not hard as everything was common and easily identified if you knew how and why things worked.

   I find his posts and techniques informative. Could someone explain the problem they see with his technique. Thanx

[MarkFeld]

For the most part, those of us who have commented in his threads have already explained our reasoning. Speaking for myself, I believe that far more could be achieved if better white color balance and photos of the entire side of each coin were used.That said, I still appreciate his efforts and don’t doubt that they help some posters.

Likewise, I believe that a particular dealer who didn’t (or doesn’t) take the time to spellcheck her market reports, could reach a larger audience and help more collectors if she went that extra step. In each case, it’s their choice and I realize that they’re still doing a lot more than nothing at all.

 

[Coinbuf]

Many of the issues that surround Insider are (imo) his approach and how he interacts with those that reply, he can (and does to me) at times come off as abrasive, know-it-all, and condescending in a way that puts many on the defensive right away.  I understand that he wants to help but his style does not seem to work well in a digital setting, perhaps he is better in a personal face-to-face setting.  He is the only person that I have ever put on ignore, first when he was on the PCGS forum and now here, I recognize that sometimes you just don't get along with someone and that seems to be the case here for me.

[gmarguli]

1 hour ago, Moxie15 said:

I find his posts and techniques informative. Could someone explain the problem they see with his technique. Thanx

Forum: Here is some constructive criticism that could better help get your point across and inform the forum members. 

Insider: I'm right, you're wrong. 

[Insider]

Look, I've heard it all before.  This is not a personality contest.  I can be a very abrasive person and at the same time quite a softie. I tend to grow on people who hate me at first.  As far as being put on "ignore" - its their loss.  I enjoy being sarcastic when called for and I like a good discussion.  I can dish it and take it.  I can already see the effect a few of us are having trying to reactivate this old forum.  

Everyone that posts here has something to contribute.  We also have different levels of knowledge in different fields.  That includes numismatics.  To even think that someone here is a "know-it-all" smacks of either ignorance, incompetence, or some form of jealousy!  

I was not "spoon-fed."  I post the way I do because there are several ways to learn things and I learn/remember more when I'm challenged.  You don't know a subject unless you can respond correctly to questions.  When I'm wrong, it is both embarrassing and like death.  Fortunately, I'm still alive and have learned something.  

 

[Revenant]

7 minutes ago, Insider said:

When I'm wrong, it is both embarrassing and like death.

That's a little sad to me. Learning that you're wrong means you learned something. Learning new things is good. Failure is good insofar as it teaches us / we learn from it. If you're never wrong and you never fail you can't be learning and you can't be growing. My art teacher told us, "If you're comfortable you aren't growing."

[ldhair]

There are many ways to teach. More will learn from a fun and friendly teacher. Being abrasive drives folks away and they quit posting.

People don't come here to fight, they come here to have fun and get away from other stuff in life.  

[RWB]

Communication between humans is difficult even when it is face to face. But texts and many a few photos, are limiting and make it much more difficult to convey a message accurately. We all tend to assume certain things from previous interactions, and those assumptions just make things more difficult.

We are all irascible at times.

[kbbpll]

Too often it comes off as trying to prove how smart you are. If all the evidence is presented and somebody knowledgeable guesses right away, that's OK. Somebody else still learns something. It's like a forensic science class where all you get is a close up of part of a head wound and everybody is guessing various murder instruments, and then you finally get to see the body at the bottom of a 300 foot cliff. Yes, that's a teaching moment, it teaches you to ask the right questions. But if, all along, the instructor is acting like you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, the lesson gets lost.

[MarkFeld]

The replies from Insider and others should provide clear answers to your question.😉

[Insider]

16 hours ago, Revenant said:

That's a little sad to me. Learning that you're wrong means you learned something. Learning new things is good. Failure is good insofar as it teaches us / we learn from it. If you're never wrong and you never fail you can't be learning and you can't be growing. My art teacher told us, "If you're comfortable you aren't growing."

Do you know what is much more than a little sad?  In fact it is extremely sad to me!  

Folks who either cannot understand English, misquote my posts, or leave things out to make me look stupid.  Did you read this in my post? 

"When I'm wrong, it is both embarrassing and like death.  Fortunately, I'm still alive and have learned something."  

That's OK, I forget that people in other countries post here too. 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Insider

[Insider]

8 hours ago, kbbpll said:

Too often it comes off as trying to prove how smart you are. If all the evidence is presented and somebody knowledgeable guesses right away, that's OK. Somebody else still learns something. It's like a forensic science class where all you get is a close up of part of a head wound and everybody is guessing various murder instruments, and then you finally get to see the body at the bottom of a 300 foot cliff. Yes, that's a teaching moment, it teaches you to ask the right questions. But if, all along, the instructor is acting like you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, the lesson gets lost.

That my fried is a problem with the "snowflake" student!   The definition of a "student" is someone here to learn.  There are a lot of folks who fall into the category of "instructor" dealing with something.  I've never been smarter than my instructor and I've had to deal with all kinds - even those who could smack me around physically.  Perhaps that is why "words" or the attitude of my instructor never bothered me.  I like to think it PREPARED ME FOR REAL LIFE.   

BTW, In case you have not looked at many of my other quizzes posted elsewhere, I got really tired of someone answering the question in the first post after all the time/trouble I went through to make it interesting.  I asked advanced collectors not to post right away so beginners had a chance to think and reply.  It worked very well over there. 

On this site, the knowledgeable folks like to post about "white balance."       

[Moxie15]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

The replies from Insider and others should provide clear answers to your question.😉

My question was rhetorical, I find it fascinating that knowledgeable numismatists find a common and accepted teaching method so  distasteful. 

[MarkFeld]

44 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

My question was rhetorical, I find it fascinating that knowledgeable numismatists find a common and accepted teaching method so  distasteful. 

Perhaps the distaste among those of whom you’re speaking, should be considered by someone who really wants to teach.

[Moxie15]

whoooah!

[Moxie15]

well I am ready for another of @Insider 's quizzes Complete with close ups and incorrect 'white balance'

[punkaccountant]

11 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

well I am ready for another of @Insider 's quizzes Complete with close ups and incorrect 'white balance'

I'd like to see a quiz too and see what all the hoopla is about!!

[Revenant]

6 hours ago, Insider said:

Do you know what is much more than a little sad?  In fact it is extremely sad to me!  

Folks who either cannot understand English, misquote my posts, or leave things out to make me look stupid.  Did you read this in my post? 

"When I'm wrong, it is both embarrassing and like death.  Fortunately, I'm still alive and have learned something."  

 

Yeah. That second sentence doesn't go as far in negating the first sentence for me as it seems to for you.

[Insider]

9 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Perhaps the distaste among those of whom you’re speaking, should be considered by someone who really wants to teach.

Hey Mark, 

Don't give up, your posts and comments are very important to all of us.  Additionally, no need to explain any of your comments to me.  I expressed that in a post that was "blocked" and would not post in another thread.   

[MAULEMALL]

Wow.. A whole thread started just to single out a member... And not one coin topic...

Whelp.. I'm off to volunteer some more time for my country.. 
Maybe yall should pic a day of the week to pile on to someone publicly.. 

Whackem Wednesday or TROLLEM TUESDAY...  Wooohooo...

 

 

[Moxie15]

1 hour ago, MAULEMALL said:

Wow.. A whole thread started just to single out a member... And not one coin topic...

Whelp.. I'm off to volunteer some more time for my country.. 
Maybe yall should pic a day of the week to pile on to someone publicly.. 

Whackem Wednesday or TROLLEM TUESDAY...  Wooohooo...

 

 

Well, you missed the boat on this one @MAULEMALL The thread is about several members not accepting a time honored teaching and testing method used by some members.  I think that anyone of the members who complain about 'white balance' and close up pictures of partial coin surfaces would easily answer the related question if they were not fixated on the minor technical issues  of presentation. As I mentioned in the OP  I have taken important and  potentially life altering  exams with far worse pictures and illustrations.

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, MAULEMALL said:

Wow.. A whole thread started just to single out a member... And not one coin topic...

Whelp.. I'm off to volunteer some more time for my country.. 
Maybe yall should pic a day of the week to pile on to someone publicly.. 

Whackem Wednesday or TROLLEM TUESDAY...  Wooohooo...

 

 

Right you are!  Just like the old days of March 2004 eh?  Eat em up Osceola!

[Insider]

NEW Quiz:

What is the clue that this is an example of Artificial Toning?  

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Insider

[Moxie15]

The bubble pattern and the abrupt color changes

[Insider]

41 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

The bubble pattern and the abrupt color changes

How the heck did you get the correct answer?  The colors are terrible.  Only one is close but the white balance is off and only 1/2 of the reverse is shown!  I wonder if your answer would change if the other side of the coin was a gem, white, frosty Unc.  I didn't think so.  

[Insider]

This is a little harder.  Please fill in the blanks:

This is an image of a  _________ nickel with a ___________ date.   The date has a _______   _______  running through it.  

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

How the heck did you get the correct answer?  The colors are terrible.  Only one is close but the white balance is off and only 1/2 of the reverse is shown!  I wonder if your answer would change if the other side of the coin was a gem, white, frosty Unc.  I didn't think so.  

Sarcasm aside for a moment - I wonder if his answer would have been different, had he viewed properly white color balanced pictures of the entire coin?

[RWB]

The two photos above, show this for which correct color is not needed. Either would be OK in B&W (grayscale). But correct color balance presents a coin or other item more accurately than otherwise.

[MAULEMALL]

5 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

Well, you missed the boat on this one @MAULEMALL The thread is about several members not accepting a time honored teaching and testing method used by some members.  I think that anyone of the members who complain about 'white balance' and close up pictures of partial coin surfaces would easily answer the related question if they were not fixated on the minor technical issues  of presentation. As I mentioned in the OP  I have taken important and  potentially life altering  exams with far worse pictures and illustrations.

You got your clique points...

[Insider]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Sarcasm aside for a moment - I wonder if his answer would have been different, had he viewed properly white color balanced pictures of the entire coin?

I seriously doubt it so please, please, please.  Soap-like multi-bubbles on a coin OF ANY COLOR are BBBBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD!   Dry lacquer or glue coatings often include bubbles actual air bubbles but this is different.