sometimes I wonder 1 1

[Moxie15]

Sometimes I wonder if there should be a separate designation for a toned coin. MS, meaning Mint State just doesn't seem to cut it in my mind. The coin was pretty obviously not toned before, during or just after striking. Yes, some coins toned in the bank bags, but that does not seem to be the major cause of most toning seen on coins. Long term storage in less than ideal conditions causes most toning. So technically a coin exhibiting 'album toning' is no longer in the same state as it left the mint, Mint State. I see this as a  different situation than bag marks as bag marks reduce the grade of the coin as an MS 68 cannot, by definition have excess bag marks so the coin is reduced in grade.  An MS 68 can be heavily toned without being downgraded and many people claim that exceptional color can raise the grade of a coin. So on a cold rainy afternoon when I am not building stalls in my barn I wonder Should toned coins be called something other than mint state.

 

 

[Crawtomatic]

That's an interesting thought.  I can see merit in that.  It would even help differentiate market value and perhaps reduce some of the "market grading" that results in a higher score on eye appeal rather than technical merit.

If a TPG instituted it then they could also see an uptick of resubmissions related.

[Coinbuf]

Toning is given far too much weight in todays market imo, however I'm not sure that changing or adding a qualifier is the right way to go.  Markets change, once white and red was king, now color is the rage, tomorrow will be who knows what.  I say grade the coin by technical merits and let the market decide the price.

[MarkFeld]

For better or for worse, the term “mint state” is generally used to describe a coin that is uncirculated, not a coin that’s literally in the state in which it left the mint.

[bsshog40]

I agree with coinbuf and Mark. Mint state is the correct term for coins that are uncirculated which is the condition they left the mint. Besides Errors and Vams, I think anything else is just a collectors liking and not a change in the coins mint state. I also don't believe that color, if you're just referring to toning, can change a coins grade. It might add additional notes, such as a Star or Plus, but not the grade. 

[RWB]

4 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

For better or for worse, the term “mint state” is generally used to describe a coin that is uncirculated, not a coin that’s literally in the state in which it left the mint.

To me, it's a "worse" term. Uncirculated is a clear, sensible and long-accepted term. It is easily understood. As Mark noted, "...not a coin that’s literally in the state in which it left the mint."

Toning of any kind - literally chemical tarnish - is a descriptor and not part of a grade -- ever.

[Cat Bath]

 

7 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

An MS 68 can be heavily toned without being downgraded

Yes, but it won't get a bean & that is most important thing in the universe.

I suggest you call the coins WNC (Will Not CAC) because JA only likes blast white luster-bombs.

It could also stand for Will Not Cross because ATS any slab without a bean goes directly to the billing/shipping department. Makes for great turn-around time though.

[Moxie15]

11 hours ago, bsshog40 said:

I agree with coinbuf and Mark. Mint state is the correct term for coins that are uncirculated which is the condition they left the mint. Besides Errors and Vams, I think anything else is just a collectors liking and not a change in the coins mint state. I also don't believe that color, if you're just referring to toning, can change a coins grade. It might add additional notes, such as a Star or Plus, but not the grade. 

But would you say the same thing about environmental damage, which in its most basic meaning is just what toning is

[bsshog40]

1 hour ago, Moxie15 said:

But would you say the same thing about environmental damage, which in its most basic meaning is just what toning is

Now you're getting into the conditions of  coin. Toning, in my eyes, doesn't affect the Mint State of the coin unless it gets  severe. Once any type of coin starts getting enough environmental damage and the severeness of it starts affecting the coins Mint State is a whole different thing. And the coin isn't considered Mint State anymore. 

[VKurtB]

6 hours ago, bsshog40 said:

Now you're getting into the conditions of  coin. Toning, in my eyes, doesn't affect the Mint State of the coin unless it gets  severe. Once any type of coin starts getting enough environmental damage and the severeness of it starts affecting the coins Mint State is a whole different thing. And the coin isn't considered Mint State anymore. 

It seems awfully difficult to me to define at what point that change occurs, no? Isn't it a continuum, and not a binary situation? It seems ridiculous to me to claim that there is some finite point at which environmental toning instantly becomes environmental damage. I feel some are force-feeding a distinction without a difference to meet a pre-determined desired outcome.

[gmarguli]

23 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

Sometimes I wonder if there should be a separate designation for a toned coin. 

From 2000-2002, NGC used to designate coins T for toned and W for 100% white coins. The demand for this in the marketplace was pretty much zero. 

 

31 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

It seems ridiculous to me to claim that there is some finite point at which environmental toning instantly becomes environmental damage.

When the toning has materially etched into the surfaces or greatly impairs the underlying luster, you can call it environmental damage. 

[VKurtB]

21 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

From 2000-2002, NGC used to designate coins T for toned and W for 100% white coins. The demand for this in the marketplace was pretty much zero. 

 

When the toning has materially etched into the surfaces or greatly impairs the underlying luster, you can call it environmental damage. 

I maintain that the only thing that differentiates one from the other is how much effort one wants to employ in looking for said impairment. There is no line of demarcation actually.