US mint too high for my blood! 0

[gmarguli]

If the US Mint would limit production to a similar number, which would be about 95,700 sets based on population ratio, I'd gladly pay $93.50 per set. 

I'd also be willing to pay an extra $20 for a mint set if they were of super high quality like the Swiss sets.

These are apples to oranges comparisons. 

[bsshog40]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Alas, the inevitable fate of all golden egg laying geese. "Change" is vastly over-rated.

By the way, have you ever priced a base metal (CuNi) Swiss mint set or proof set at their website? Amazing how much they sell for. We have been spoiled literally for decades. Nowhere else in the whole world is their the assumption that numismatic coins closely track the metals used to make them. It's a uniquely American fetish and expectation.  

I don't see how you can compare prices of Swiss Mint Sets or any other countries mint sets. Your comparing a market of 8.5 million people to 330 million. Then you have to narrow that down to collectors. Not even close! 

[VKurtB]

19 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

I don't see how you can compare prices of Swiss Mint Sets or any other countries mint sets. Your comparing a market of 8.5 million people to 330 million. Then you have to narrow that down to collectors. Not even close! 

I’m not sure of what possible relevance a nation’s population is. It’s a thoroughly international marketplace. 

[bsshog40]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I’m not sure of what possible relevance a nation’s population is. It’s a thoroughly international marketplace. 

Yea but as many years as I been collecting and reading coin forums, I've never seen or heard of a mass population of people that buy other countries mint sets. I know there are a few but those numbers wouldn't even come close to U.S. individuals and companies that buy US mint sets. They most likely would never match sales of the US Mint. Good possibility of why their sets cost more. And I would also bet that their mintage numbers are no where close to US mintages either. 

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

Yea but as many years as I been collecting and reading coin forums, I've never seen or heard of a mass population of people that buy other countries mint sets. I know there are a few but those numbers wouldn't even come close to U.S. individuals and companies that buy US mint sets. They most likely would never match sales of the US Mint. Good possibility of why their sets cost more. And I would also bet that their mintage numbers are no where close to US mintages either. 

Then count me among the first. I buy from at least four nations on an ongoing basis, and would from more if they were easier accessed. I only stopped buying from Japan when they stopped coming to ANA shows.

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

So I ask the forum, who likes $93.50 for a base metal proof set? Are you willing to swim in that pool? The point is that these products cost money to make, SERIOUS money. We have been spoiled.

I'd still rather buy the Swiss set with a mintage of 2500 at double the price.  Not only will the value hold up better but the designs are also superior to most collectors.  The quality difference is just an added bonus.

[World Colonial]

37 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

Yea but as many years as I been collecting and reading coin forums, I've never seen or heard of a mass population of people that buy other countries mint sets. I know there are a few but those numbers wouldn't even come close to U.S. individuals and companies that buy US mint sets. They most likely would never match sales of the US Mint. Good possibility of why their sets cost more. And I would also bet that their mintage numbers are no where close to US mintages either. 

I have only looked selectively at mintages but not for anything recent.  I'd guess the gap has decreased noticeably as US annual sales have collapsed over the last several decades but it's still huge.

US annual sets are a lousy value, even before this price increase.  Mints don't control all their costs but that doesn't change the value proposition to the collector who doesn't care about that.

If you want to see better value, take a look at mintages and prices of older world sets.  I own a few.  One is the Canada dual dated (1953-2003) Golden Jubilee with the Mary Gillick portrait struck in silver.  It's very common with 30,000 but can be bought for about $75 and comes in a nice presentation case.  Don't own it but the Canada 1911-2011 set commemorating the centenary of the 1911 SP dollar sells for about $200 in a wooden case.  It's silver, has the popular King George V design and a mintage of 6,000.  I also own a gem 1974 South Africa short set (8 coins).  I paid about $300 for it because it's graded (mostly PCGS), all but one are CAM or DCAM and six are 67 or 68.  A raw set in the original case but still nice is maybe about $30.  Mintage is 8000.

"Low mintage" for a US set is like 1950 and earlier.  The US is one of the few countries that struck proof sets regularly but where others did, the mintages in the 20th century during this period are frequently in the hundreds or less.  There aren't very many really common ones.  Britain is one exception since these were only struck intermittently, like the 1953 which I recall as being 40,000.  However, the proportion surviving in better quality seems to be relatively low and really nice sets aren't cheap.

[RWB]

FYI - There are a lot of beans in the coin counter soup.

[Conder101]

5 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I’m not sure of what possible relevance a nation’s population is. It’s a thoroughly international marketplace.

Because most of the collectors of a countries coins are citizens of that country.

 

5 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Then count me among the first. I buy from at least four nations on an ongoing basis

There are US collectors who collect sets from other countries, but they are only a very small number compared to the number of US collectors that buy US sets.  Likewise the number of collectors in other countries that buy US sets is small  compared to those buying their own countries sets.

[World Colonial]

8 hours ago, Conder101 said:

There are US collectors who collect sets from other countries, but they are only a very small number compared to the number of US collectors that buy US sets.  Likewise the number of collectors in other countries that buy US sets is small  compared to those buying their own countries sets.

I'd say the collecting of US proof sets by those living elsewhere is right near zero.  If there is any evidence of "meaningful" collecting of US coinage elsewhere at all, I have never seen it. 

I haven't performed a comprehensive search but what I see is mostly generic pre-1933 gold and circulated mostly ungraded coins in auctions.  The collector material is worth respectable money on occasion but it appears to have been acquired a long time ago when coins were much cheaper.  I don't look at dealer inventory or eBay listings for low priced items.

I agree with you that collectors disproportionately prefer and collect their own coinage.  Concurrently, US proof sets are going to be an even worse value proposition for collectors anywhere else.

[olympicsos]

The only thing I have bought from the US Mint over the years are items that I think I can flip for profit. The only thing I have bought from the US Mint this year are bags of 2019 S mint ATB Quarters because I have been unable to get Quarters in bulk from my bank because of COVID restrictions and because I am uncomfortable touching coins from the bank and would gladly pay the US Mint premium to avoid the germs and the headache of dealing with my bank. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by olympicsos

[World Colonial]

44 minutes ago, olympicsos said:

The only thing I have bought from the US Mint over the years are items that I think I can flip for profit. 

I think this is representative of a noticeable proportion, now and previously.  

It's also why even when mintages are supposedly "low", it's far more than the actual collector base who really want it.  Even among those not buying it for profit, it's noticeably either a sideline collection or bought out of habit.

[olympicsos]

16 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

I think this is representative of a noticeable proportion, now and previously.  

It's also why even when mintages are supposedly "low", it's far more than the actual collector base who really want it.  Even among those not buying it for profit, it's noticeably either a sideline collection or bought out of habit.

I used to buy annual proof sets, mint sets, ASE's and 1/10 oz AGE's through 2008 and then the classic coins stole my heart. The only modern post 2008 coins that I really like are the 2009 UHR and the 2016 gold centennial coins. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by olympicsos

[RWB]

At its beginning I assembled date sets of ASEs and AGEs. But then the Mint started playing games with nonsense special surfaces, and "proof" versions and other garbage. My buying stopped long ago and the sets are in the bank box. Seems the original purpose of these series has been forgotten.

The only coins from the US Mint I've acquired lately are pieces given to me by appreciative collectors. (Yes, Virginia, there remain a few who appreciate research and information more than gold.)

[VKurtB]

12 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Because most of the collectors of a countries coins are citizens of that country.

 

There are US collectors who collect sets from other countries, but they are only a very small number compared to the number of US collectors that buy US sets.  Likewise the number of collectors in other countries that buy US sets is small  compared to those buying their own countries sets.

I’ve been to a foreign coin fair, the Bloomsbury in London, England. Yes, most material was U. K., but the second most common country was the U.S. Then came pre-euro France, and then Swiss coins. There was more Eastern Bloc material than one would expect. Many, many sets of many countries. I bought a 1966 U.S. Special Mint Set there with three fully cameo coins in it.

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

I’ve been to a foreign coin fair, the Bloomsbury in London, England. Yes, most material was U. K., but the second most common country was the U.S. Then came pre-euro France, and then Swiss coins. There was more Eastern Bloc material than one would expect. Many, many sets of many countries. I bought a 1966 U.S. Special Mint Set there with three fully cameo coins in it.

What was the price range for the US coins you saw?  What kinds of coins?

[olympicsos]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

At its beginning I assembled date sets of ASEs and AGEs. But then the Mint started playing games with nonsense special surfaces, and "proof" versions and other garbage. My buying stopped long ago and the sets are in the bank box. Seems the original purpose of these series has been forgotten.

The only coins from the US Mint I've acquired lately are pieces given to me by appreciative collectors. (Yes, Virginia, there remain a few who appreciate research and information more than gold.)

Who can forget colorized coins. Although I did like the reverse proof and enhanced uncirculated finishes as well as the proof like finishes on the 2009 UHR. I think that ever since cameo proofs have been made with uniformity since 1978, the traditional proof coins have lost their color with me. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by olympicsos

[RWB]

7 minutes ago, olympicsos said:

Who can forget colorized coins. Although I did like the reverse proof and enhanced uncirculated finishes as well as the proof like finishes on the 2009 UHR. I think that ever since cameo proofs have been made with uniformity since 1978, the traditional proof coins have lost their color with me. 

Awful puns.

[VKurtB]

5 hours ago, World Colonial said:

What was the price range for the US coins you saw?  What kinds of coins?

I picked up some early semi-key Washington quarters at below normal U.S. coin show prices. There was one guy whose specialty was Seated U.S., for which I was ill prepared to shop. There were three dealers who had huge boxes of world coins and sets in OGP boxes. The Bloomsbury is not a huge show by U. S. standards. Maybe a 40 dealer bourse.

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

I picked up some early semi-key Washington quarters at below normal U.S. coin show prices. There was one guy whose specialty was Seated U.S., for which I was ill prepared to shop. There were three dealers who had huge boxes of world coins and sets in OGP boxes. The Bloomsbury is not a huge show by U. S. standards. Maybe a 40 dealer bourse.

Sounds like the same types of coins sold by dealers in the "budget" section of the conventions I have attended (ANA, Long Beach).  The cut-off was $300 last I remember.  I can see some of these coins being collected outside the US, at a discount to the US price per your example.

[Conder101]

10 hours ago, RWB said:

Seems the original purpose of these series has been forgotten.

The original purpose was accomplished a LONG time ago.  The ASE was originally a method for selling off the silver strategic stockpile.  All the silver for the ASE's was to come from the stockpile until it was depleted.  Well it was depleted a long time ago and ever since then the government has been going out on the open market, buying silver, paying for shipping, paying to have the silver fabricated into planchets, paying shipping again, the expenses of coining and packaging, and them finally selling them to the distributors (originally for $1, then $1.50 and now $2 over the spot price).  I would assume the distributors pay the shipping to them.

When the government was using the stockpile silver they were making a good profit (they bought the silver for $1.29 and ounce or less) but I suspect ever since they ran out of stockpile silver they have been making very little or at times even losing money on them.

[VKurtB]

15 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

The original purpose was accomplished a LONG time ago.  The ASE was originally a method for selling off the silver strategic stockpile.  All the silver for the ASE's was to come from the stockpile until it was depleted.  Well it was depleted a long time ago and ever since then the government has been going out on the open market, buying silver, paying for shipping, paying to have the silver fabricated into planchets, paying shipping again, the expenses of coining and packaging, and them finally selling them to the distributors (originally for $1, then $1.50 and now $2 over the spot price).  I would assume the distributors pay the shipping to them.

When the government was using the stockpile silver they were making a good profit (they bought the silver for $1.29 and ounce or less) but I suspect ever since they ran out of stockpile silver they have been making very little or at times even losing money on them.

This is correct for bullion coins, but the huge increases are all in the numismatic division. It is only the numismatic division that bleeds red ink at current prices. The seniorage of quarters rescues circulation division operations, and the bullion division is self-sustaining. The numismatic division is the financial basket case. The main problem seems to be distribution of fixed costs, including, by the way, the entirety of the Mint’s website operations, plus the entire Mississippi warehouse, plus all advertising of all kinds and media. Every major coin show they attend gets added into the fixed costs as well.

The only answers are radical cost reductions or increased prices.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

7 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The only answers are radical cost reductions or increased prices.

The current situation is what happens with perpetual inflation while the customer's income mostly stagnates.  It's a similar problem with the TPG business model where they have to increase grading fees even as the price level stagnates which makes it uneconomical to submit a greater proportion of coins.

There is a third option you left out.  They can discontinue a product or the product line entirely.

[olympicsos]

10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

This is correct for bullion coins, but the huge increases are all in the numismatic division. It is only the numismatic division that bleeds red ink at current prices. The seniorage of quarters rescues circulation division operations, and the bullion division is self-sustaining. The numismatic division is the financial basket case. The main problem seems to be distribution of fixed costs, including, by the way, the entirety of the Mint’s website operations, plus the entire Mississippi warehouse, plus all advertising of all kinds and media. Every major coin show they attend gets added into the fixed costs as well.

The only answers are radical cost reductions or increased prices.

No wonder why the US Mint is considering selling bullion coins to collectors directly. The US Mint wants the profits for itself rather than bullion coins going through the profit chain between the Mint, the authorized purchasers, the dealers that buy from authorized purchasers, the collector. 

[olympicsos]

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

The current situation is what happens with perpetual inflation while the customer's income mostly stagnates.  It's a similar problem with the TPG business model where they have to increase grading fees even as the price level stagnates which makes it uneconomical to submit a greater proportion of coins.

There is a third option you left out.  They can discontinue a product or the product line entirely.

There are a bunch of US Mint products that could be discontinued entirely. The clad proof set for starters. 

[jtryka]

I agree @bsshog40, I signed up for subscriptions to the coins I collect from the mint earlier this year since they finally decided to waive shipping charges on subscriptions.  I was stunned when I received an e-mail from the mint saying my proof ASE was shipped last week and the charge was $73!  I thought that $54 was fair, and $64 was a stretch, but this is getting out of hand.  I bought a 2003 proof ASE at my last coin club meeting and the dealer was asking greysheet bid which was just $35!  Perhaps it's time to put the sets on hold and wait a few years to buy them in the aftermarket for something closer to melt.

[VKurtB]

42 minutes ago, jtryka said:

I agree @bsshog40, I signed up for subscriptions to the coins I collect from the mint earlier this year since they finally decided to waive shipping charges on subscriptions.  I was stunned when I received an e-mail from the mint saying my proof ASE was shipped last week and the charge was $73!  I thought that $54 was fair, and $64 was a stretch, but this is getting out of hand.  I bought a 2003 proof ASE at my last coin club meeting and the dealer was asking greysheet bid which was just $35!  Perhaps it's time to put the sets on hold and wait a few years to buy them in the aftermarket for something closer to melt.

I hope that works out for you. I have serious doubts it will.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, olympicsos said:

No wonder why the US Mint is considering selling bullion coins to collectors directly. The US Mint wants the profits for itself rather than bullion coins going through the profit chain between the Mint, the authorized purchasers, the dealers that buy from authorized purchasers, the collector. 

I hadn't read that they were thinking of selling bullion directly to "consumer/collectors". Where did you read that? Be careful about that idea. It WILL do to bullion what has happened to numismatic products.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[bsshog40]

This is what I have updated to. I'm done with the rest of them!

 

 

[VKurtB]

34 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

This is what I have updated to. I'm done with the rest of them!

 

 

You're a tough dude, there. Can't say I blame you. I'm considering a similar move. I'm not yet sure I can give up one annual silver proof set, though. The 3rd one from the top on yours.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB