Difficult Quiz - edges.
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Coins have three sides.  Which of the following images shows the edge of a genuine coin?   The images are posted in the first few posts because they don't fit on just one.  Answer by telling which of the three posts and then top or bottom image.  This is very hard as most don't bother to look at the edges of a coin.

 

 

IMG_2722.JPG

IMG_1512.JPG

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I'll take a stab.  post 1, image 1 looks genuine to me; very regular. Post 2, image 2, is a "maybe", because there is a fair amount of variation in the width of the "lands". Post 3, I don't think either coin is genuine, the first one is just very irregular, and the second is just plain weird, like an Oreo with the filling licked out and the 2 halves stuck together. then plated. 

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The 3rd side is for authentication purposes only.

That's why I pay TPG's :bigsmile:

Honestly, 2,3 & 6 look a bit funky.

Edited by Cat Bath

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I am assuming that all coins are US coins (or facsimiles thereof)

1. The reeding is evenly spaced and clean bumps,humps, and scratches. The reeds are spaced very far apart. I am not aware of any US coins that have reeding that matches this.

2. The reeding is shallow, ill defined and rife with lines that look like file lines. 

3. The reeds are not even and show extreme inconsistency in shape, form, width and depth with many unilateral lines and scratches 

4.  The depth looks to be consistent and fairly clean the reeds are not all exactly the same width. This looks much like the reeding I have seen on quarters. 

5. The reeds are overly narrow and wide spaced. The Valleys between the reeds look to be deeper in the center than on the ends as if cut with a wheel such as a Dremel cutting wheel.

6. Every cast coin I have seen has an appearance like this.

 

I think number 4 is the only genuine edge.

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Number 4, possibly number 5. Is number six a badly produced electroplate (don't know,never seen one - probably not).

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I like #4, the top and bottom appear to be rounded over as I would expect the edges on a circulated coin to be. The tops and bottoms of the reeds seem to transition smoothly to the rim, no shelves or ledges. I don't like the inconsistent spacing and reed size though, but I guess that's good in eliminating it as a gear rack or some mechanical (non coin) object meant to trip us up.

I'm going to go with #1 as my second guess. It's just so clean looking, possibly NCLT, or not?(shrug)

Edited by Fenntucky Mike

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3 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

I am assuming that all coins are US coins (or facsimiles thereof)

1. The reeding is evenly spaced and clean bumps,humps, and scratches. The reeds are spaced very far apart. I am not aware of any US coins that have reeding that matches this.

2. The reeding is shallow, ill defined and rife with lines that look like file lines. 

3. The reeds are not even and show extreme inconsistency in shape, form, width and depth with many unilateral lines and scratches 

4.  The depth looks to be consistent and fairly clean the reeds are not all exactly the same width. This looks much like the reeding I have seen on quarters. 

5. The reeds are overly narrow and wide spaced. The Valleys between the reeds look to be deeper in the center than on the ends as if cut with a wheel such as a Dremel cutting wheel.

6. Every cast coin I have seen has an appearance like this.

 

I think number 4 is the only genuine edge.

THIS is an EXCELLENT POST, possibly one of the very best replies I have gotten on a quiz.  This member DESCRIBED what he saw in each image and then took a guess.   Whenever, you are looking at something on a coin, it helps to describe what you see as that will eliminate some of the possibilities.

All the images are US coins.  The reason this is very difficult for most here is because you cannot see the entire coin.  There are characteristics on each edge which would be helpful for an authenticator. Most collectors do not study edges! 

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Too bad most slabs don't show the edge. Might as well not exist for many coins.

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Here's what I see:

1. The reeding is shallow, but very crisp. The bottom rim is razor sharp square.
-> hypothesis: this coin is a gift shop type piece made for sale as an imitation, and if we saw the face of the coin would be quickly obvious it is not genuine.

2. The reeding is not uniform, widely spaced, and irregular. There are "blobs" in places, and there are vertical lines which look like file-marks or some sort of shear.
-> hypothesis: this looks like the distortion I've seen on coins with added mintmarks. The counterfeiter will drill a hole into the edge of the coin, emboss a mintmark, and then fill and repair the edge. This looks like a bad repair-job.

3. The reeding is very wide, and very widely spaced. There is some rim damage at the top.
-> hypothesis: this is a machine struck counterfeit where they got the edge/reeding wrong. This type of reeding does appear on some foreign coins, but not US (that I'm aware of).

4. The reeding is crisp, although there are some irregularities in the width. There is also what appears to be some overlap.
-> hypothesis: this is a Morgan dollar with overlapping reeding (I think someone else mentioned this earlier.) See below for another example:

ATT-101-OVERLAP-UPGRADE.jpg

5. The reeds are quite narrow and widely spaced. They seem to be thicker at the valley vs the peak. They appear to taper towards the rim. The rim appears bevelled, not round or crisp. 

 -> hypothesis: I'll admit, I'm stumped by this one - but I don't think its genuine. 

6. There is a prominent casting seam through the middle. There are casting bubbles evident throughout. The segments of reeding (top and bottom) do not align.
-> hypothesis: this is a cast counterfeit

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16 hours ago, gmarguli said:

Without knowing what the coins are, it is an impossible question. 

I do not understand how you can say that.

We have been told that they are all United States coins,

We have been told that only one coin is genuine

Unless you have never seen a raw US coin you should be able to make an educated guess.

You lose nothing if you are wrong, gain nothing if you are right, all you get is a little more knowledge at the end.

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16 hours ago, gmarguli said:

Without knowing what the coins are, it is an impossible question. 

Actually, it is not.  For example, any experienced, knowledgeable numismatist could easily pick at least two of these just by the image.  That's what we all should wish to strive for.  To be an experienced, knowledgeable numismatist at the youngest age possible.  :)

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7 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

I do not understand how you can say that.

We have been told that they are all United States coins,

We have been told that only one coin is genuine

Unless you have never seen a raw US coin you should be able to make an educated guess.

You lose nothing if you are wrong, gain nothing if you are right, all you get is a little more knowledge at the end.

It's not about playing the guessing game. 

If this were approached as "Which edges show common characteristics of being counterfeit and why?" then that would have been better. But to guess if the coin is genuine only by the edge isn't practical. As an extreme example, the edge could look legit for a Morgan dollar, but surprise it was on a Large Cent. 

I would suspect that a vast majority of experienced numismatists can determine if a coin is authentic before looking at the edge. The edge may seal your opinion, but your opinion was formed before needing to look at the edge. 

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2nd Post bottom is the only one that looks like a U.S. coin to me. I haven’t looked at much U.S. gold.

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5 hours ago, gmarguli said:

It's not about playing the guessing game. 

If this were approached as "Which edges show common characteristics of being counterfeit and why?" then that would have been better. But to guess if the coin is genuine only by the edge isn't practical. As an extreme example, the edge could look legit for a Morgan dollar, but surprise it was on a Large Cent. 

I would suspect that a vast majority of experienced numismatists can determine if a coin is authentic before looking at the edge. The edge may seal your opinion, but your opinion was formed before needing to look at the edge. 

Thanks for your comments.  You are either clairvoyant or I failed to see you looking over my shoulder to see what I look at first.  You don't deserve an answer but here it is.  Authenticating coins can be boring at times.  I like to play learning games with myself.  Very often, I'll pick up a coin by the edges and close my eyes.  Then I'll open them when the coin is standing on edge under my scope.  I'll try to authenticate it, and pick the date and mint by its edge reeding.  Presently I'm trying to learn how Morgan dollar experts can look at the obverse rim and correctly guess the coin's mint.  They also know the luster types on different dates. 

Anyway, I'll be waiting for you to start a quiz so you can do as you wish.  I'm fresh out of silver spoons!   

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Answer when I go to lunch break.  This forum is really dead.  Without posters, commenting or starting threads it will stay that way. :(

 

There is a big plus though, a dozen guys can have a private space to chat for free.  :)

Edited by Insider

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16 hours ago, Insider said:

Thanks for your comments.  You are either clairvoyant or I failed to see you looking over my shoulder to see what I look at first.  You don't deserve an answer but here it is.  Authenticating coins can be boring at times.  I like to play learning games with myself.  Very often, I'll pick up a coin by the edges and close my eyes.  Then I'll open them when the coin is standing on edge under my scope.  I'll try to authenticate it, and pick the date and mint by its edge reeding.  Presently I'm trying to learn how Morgan dollar experts can look at the obverse rim and correctly guess the coin's mint.  They also know the luster types on different dates. 

Anyway, I'll be waiting for you to start a quiz so you can do as you wish.  I'm fresh out of silver spoons!   

Actually, what you failed to see was me making any comment about what you or anyone looks at first. I stated that I would suspect that a vast majority of experienced numismatists can determine if a coin is authentic before looking at the edge and I stand by that comment. Prove me wrong. As for what games you play with yourself, I don't give a damn if you close your eyes and smell a coin trying to see if it has the correct metal mixture to determine authenticity. It's not the standard way of doing things. And thank you, I will start my own quiz.

Quiz: Why is Insider so angry at the world and have a holier-than-thou attitude?

A) Because he is fresh out of silver spoons?

B) He used to be respected in the industry, but now he is relegated to working at a TPG that most people thought was out of business?

C) Because he should have been retired many years ago, but needs to keep working for the money?

D) You'd be angry too if you spent all day grading Silver Eagles and Chuck E. Cheese Tokens. 

E) All of the above.

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1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

Actually, what you failed to see was me making any comment about what you or anyone looks at first. I stated that I would suspect that a vast majority of experienced numismatists can determine if a coin is authentic before looking at the edge and I stand by that comment. Prove me wrong. As for what games you play with yourself, I don't give a damn if you close your eyes and smell a coin trying to see if it has the correct metal mixture to determine authenticity. It's not the standard way of doing things. And thank you, I will start my own quiz.

Quiz: Why is Insider so angry at the world and have a holier-than-thou attitude?

A) Because he is fresh out of silver spoons?

B) He used to be respected in the industry, but now he is relegated to working at a TPG that most people thought was out of business?

C) Because he should have been retired many years ago, but needs to keep working for the money?

D) You'd be angry too if you spent all day grading Silver Eagles and Chuck E. Cheese Tokens. 

E) All of the above.

That's unfair, but like most snark (and I know snark), it has at least a nugget of truth in it. @Insider is coming off a little angry lately, and that confuses me. He's actually a sweetheart. At some point in all our lives, when we devote our lives to a particular profession and/or activity, and it starts to obviously value change over continuity, that can ruffle feathers. Now I don't want to go all psychotherapist (or Psycho the Rapist) here, but I am starting to read a lot of angry stuff from a lot of people in numismatics, and while I do "feel their pain" (while simultaneously biting my lower lip), I'm inclined to offer the advice that Leonard Hofstadter' mother Beverly offered to Leonard: "Buck up, sissy pants". Yeah, it stinks. But it happens.

Edited by VKurtB

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18 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

Actually, what you failed to see was me making any comment about what you or anyone looks at first. I stated that I would suspect that a vast majority of experienced numismatists can determine if a coin is authentic before looking at the edge and I stand by that comment. Prove me wrong. As for what games you play with yourself, I don't give a damn if you close your eyes and smell a coin trying to see if it has the correct metal mixture to determine authenticity. It's not the standard way of doing things. And thank you, I will start my own quiz.

Quiz: Why is Insider so angry at the world and have a holier-than-thou attitude?

A) Because he is fresh out of silver spoons?

B) He used to be respected in the industry, but now he is relegated to working at a TPG that most people thought was out of business?

C) Because he should have been retired many years ago, but needs to keep working for the money?

D) You'd be angry too if you spent all day grading Silver Eagles and Chuck E. Cheese Tokens. 

E) All of the above.

Love it!

I read your post exactly as it was stated.  Of course you are correct but YOU DON'T GET A SAY.   Every coin in this quiz is an "across-the-room" counterfeit.  In an attempt to revive this dismal excuse for a coin forum, I posted something very difficult for 95% of collectors/dealers with a trick twist.  I'm not interested in anything except building participation on the NGC site:  Trying to get all the lurkers involved.   Trying to get folks to describe what they see in an image.

As for your NON-numismatic dribble... 

A. Yes, I don't like to spoon feed anyone any time.  I will bend that rule just a tad when I'm conducting a private.class ($1500) with a dealer or collector.

B. Only an ignorant collector would not know the TPGS I work for at the moment went out of business.  Perhaps if our volume when down or I spent less time on the phone talking about their submission with our customers I could go home before 8-8:30 PM each night! 

C.  Absolutely YES!   I love my profession.  I have been joking for years that I will be found dead at my desk.  Additionally, wives, horses, sailboats, and sport cars are expensive to keep up.

D. Thankfully, I reached the point in my career when I rarely ever look at many of those coins around 2005.  

E. Yes but you forgot to add quite a few more.   

 

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LOL, UNFAIR is not in my vocabulary.  Everything within the rules is fair on a chat board.  I'm mot here to make friends.  That happens or it does not.   First they need to get past a very abrasive reply I don't like a post directed at me, the devil on one shoulder and the troll on the other.  

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52 minutes ago, Insider said:

Love it!

  Every coin in this quiz is an "across-the-room" counterfeit.  In an attempt to revive this dismal excuse for a coin forum, I posted something very difficult for 95% of collectors/dealers with a trick twist. 

 

Well, damn, I failed another quiz. I have never gotten one of your quizzes on the first try. Ready for the next one!!

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Answers;

As one member posted, many of these coins would be obvious fakes if you could see them.  That's one reason I usually do not image the other two sides and just keep "edges" in a folder.

1. Counterfeit.  Even, uniform, virtually identical reeding is more often than not found on counterfeits. 

2. Genuine $10.  My typical curve ball so don't assume anything I post in the quiz introduction.  You'll see.  Anyway, no one is expected to get this one although one member mentioned that it could be a genuine coin with a repaired edge.  This coin was not in jewelry so who can say why the entire edge was carved up.  Perhaps to recover some gold filings?

3,Counterfeit.  Shallow and even reeding.   Should make you suspicious but remember EVERYTHING we see on a counterfeit we'll EVENTUALLY find on a genuine coin.

4.  Fake. Looks genuine but this is the type seen on the modern Chinese fakes.  Note the different thickness on the reeds on the left.

5. Fake.  Crude, shallow, uneven reeds.  Another typical Chinese edge.

6. Fake.  Old time cast counterfeit with edge seam. 

.   

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#2 might be a genuine coin, but the edge is either defective or altered - possibly to remove metal. Genuine or not, it is not gradable. It's hardly a fair test for anyone.

I'll add that it is important to understand coin collars and how the reeding is created if the edge is going to be a reliable feature used to validate other criteria. (Members can find the basics in From Mine to Mint. ANA members can borrow it free from the ANA library or through you local community library via Interlibrary Loan - ILL.)

Edited by RWB

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10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

That's unfair, but like most snark (and I know snark), it has at least a nugget of truth in it. @Insider is coming off a little angry lately, and that confuses me. He's actually a sweetheart. At some point in all our lives, when we devote our lives to a particular profession and/or activity, and it starts to obviously value change over continuity, that can ruffle feathers. Now I don't want to go all psychotherapist (or Psycho the Rapist) here, but I am starting to read a lot of angry stuff from a lot of people in numismatics, and while I do "feel their pain" (while simultaneously biting my lower lip), I'm inclined to offer the advice that Leonard Hofstadter' mother Beverly offered to Leonard: "Buck up, sissy pants". Yeah, it stinks. But it happens.

Oh yes, you certainly know snark, and we miss it over on CT.  I think I might spend a little more time over here just to get some snark with Big Bang Theory references mixed in.

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14 hours ago, RWB said:

#2 might be a genuine coin, but the edge is either defective or altered - possibly to remove metal. Genuine or not, it is not gradable. It's hardly a fair test for anyone.

I'll add that it is important to understand coin collars and how the reeding is created if the edge is going to be a reliable feature used to validate other criteria. (Members can find the basics in From Mine to Mint. ANA members can borrow it free from the ANA library or through you local community library via Interlibrary Loan - ILL.)

Actually it was graded.  AU-something, damaged edge.

Any quiz I post USUALLY has a trap to make folks think.  You should have been around when I posted two counterfeit gold coins and asked which one was the genuine?  One member posted that #2 may be a genuine coin with a damaged edge but there was no way to tell.  ^^

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