End of the National Parks Quarters is soon, what's next??? 2 2

[World Colonial]

21 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

For the record, I became disenchanted with "the hobby," not long after JFK's body lay in a catafalque.  I now accept that one cannot rescue anything beyond resuscitation.  If embrace the "change" means embrace the "clad,"  sorry, I'm not buying.  (Time to get back to work. Now, where's my slide ruler, protractor and No. 2 leads...?)

I presume you are referring to the introduction of clad and the removal of silver from circulating coinage.  I started collecting in 1975, never did collect out of circulation and doubt I would have if I had been able start before 1965.  None of this coinage ever interested me, even as YN of 10.

[Alex in PA.]

Once, a long time ago, I was a good customer of the US Mint.  Back when their Proof and Mint sets were worth buying.  Then one day I asked the Mint a question.  Why are you selling Buillion at such a high price when I can purchase from a dealer at a lower cost.  I was told a fantastic story about quality vs quantity etc. etc.  No more US Mint purchases.  The Mint has to be operating on a bail out budget unless those Quarter buyers are plentiful.  If only the Mint would get creative I think things would change.  This is my opinion and only my opinion. 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

I presume you are referring to the introduction of clad and the removal of silver from circulating coinage.  I started collecting in 1975, never did collect out of circulation and doubt I would have if I had been able start before 1965.  None of this coinage ever interested me, even as YN of 10.

[At the risk of getting yet another PM from an incredulous viewer demanding to know if I have any idea to whom I am directing my scattershot to, allow me to phrase my response cautiously...]

In all fairness to you, sir, anything worth saving from circulation by 1975, was long gone. I hesitate to ask just what it was that prompted you to develop an interest potent enough to inspire your user name if not everyday circulating coins. (I do not believe I have ever met, or know, anyone who has made a similar claim.) 

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[At the risk of getting yet another PM from an incredulous viewer demanding to know if I have any idea to whom I am directing my scattershot to, allow me to phrase my response cautiously...]

In all fairness to you, sir, anything worth saving from circulation by 1975, was long gone. I hesitate to ask just what it was that prompted you to develop an interest potent enough to inspire your user name if not everyday circulating coins. (I do not believe I have ever met, or know, anyone who has made a similar claim.) 

I moved back to the US in 1975 at age 10, having only lived in this country for one year previously.  So I didn't have the cultural connection to the US coinage most other US collectors do or did collect.  (That's partly why I made the claim about changing US demographics impacting the future collectability of US coinage, as many Americans or residents do and will have similar views.)

When I moved back, I had only been collecting for six months.  I acquired a preference for US coinage by reading library books and viewing my step grandmother's extensive collection (once).  My collection at the time was mostly recent world coinage obtained from my aunt in Bolivia and foreigners (mostly Americans) where we lived for a brief time.

After viewing my step grandmothers collection, I traded most of what I had and used my gift money to buy a low number of US coins: a few bust halves, a seated dollar and a seated quarter all in circulated grades.  Obviously, this collecting was far beyond my financial means but I wasn't interested in Wheat cents or the other series most US collectors collected when they started.  I never had an interest in this coinage in my multiple iterations as a collector between 1978 and 1998.  It was as boring to me then as it is now, even though I was much younger, far less knowledgeable as a collector, and with limited finances.  If that's all I could afford now, I'd probably quit again for good.

After numerous iterations (starting and stopping), I resumed collecting in 1998 for good.  I considered US coins first (since that's what I knew) but quickly came to the conclusion that I could buy far more interesting coins from elsewhere at much cheaper prices .

I initially mostly focused on South Africa Union, Bolivian republic decimals and a low number of partial type sets, including my current primary series Spanish colonial pillars.  Since I collected numerous colonial series when I joined the forum, that's the origin of my user name.

[Cat Bath]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 4:13 PM, VKurtB said:

I had hoped Delaware would choose nylon. Imagine the naughty possibilities.

Agree!....South Carolina could have had the MASER but went PC instead.

The Gerber variable scale, telephone & Hubble telescope are all legit.

When you get a Nobel prize for something, it's a good bet that it satisfies the requirement for "innovative."

Edited September 14, 2020 by Cat Bath

[RWB]

Unfortunately the South Carolina "MASER" design is so poor that nearly all would have associated it with magnets not microwaves. The adopted design is clearer, but totally misses the point of "innovation." At least they did not have another "palmetto" tree on it.

Edited September 14, 2020 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

41 minutes ago, RWB said:

Unfortunately the South Carolina "MASER" design is so poor that nearly all would have associated it with magnets not microwaves. 

[Not old Quintus, wisenheimer emeritus!   I still remember it as an acronym, standing for: Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation.

Anybody remember these Radio broadcasting cousins, once removed:  AM - amplitude modulation;  FM - frequency modulation

And who can forget the W in WABC and WNBC, stand for "Wireless."

No sir-ee Bob, that anti-intellectual tag being bandied about does not apply to this transient.]

 

[RWB]

The illustration looks like a bar magnet with iron filings sprinkled around and Dr. Faustus in motorcycle goggles.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Not old Quintus, wisenheimer emeritus!   I still remember it as an acronym, standing for: Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation.

Anybody remember these Radio broadcasting cousins, once removed:  AM - amplitude modulation;  FM - frequency modulation

And who can forget the W in WABC and WNBC, stand for "Wireless."

No sir-ee Bob, that anti-intellectual tag being bandied about does not apply to this transient.]

 

The appellation "anti-intellectual" applies to those to whom "I got me some common sense" is allegedly a virtue. Repeat: common sense is neither.

[Henri Charriere]

5 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The appellation "anti-intellectual" applies to those to whom "I got me some common sense" is allegedly a virtue. Repeat: common sense is neither.

[With all due respect to Prof. VKurtB -- and @ erwindoc, the member who began this unassuming thread, I offer the following. I am not sure where it fits in, but here goes]:

"In the United States today (1970) we have more than our share of nattering nabobs of negativism.  They have formed their own 4-H club -- the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history."   --V P Spiro Agnew (via William Safire)

[Cat Bath]

9 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The appellation "anti-intellectual" applies to those to whom "I got me some common sense" is allegedly a virtue. Repeat: common sense is neither.

The whiskey rebellion & hiding from revenue men started in Pittsburgh, Pa. as well as the cure for polio.

Maybe we should have put this on the back of our dollar.

I think I see several innovations in the picture.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Cat Bath

[RWB]

RE: "The whiskey rebellion & hiding from revenue men started in Pittsburgh, Pa. as well as the cure for polio."

ERGO: The cure for polio was discovered by moonshiners making illegal whiskey while hiding from revenue agents.

[Conder101]

On 9/11/2020 at 6:47 PM, World Colonial said:

The SQ program was a big success mostly due to the novelty factor;

Novelty factor and the fact that people USED the quarter so they saw the new designs.  Changing the designs on the dollar coins didn't work because people never saw them.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 6:47 PM, World Colonial said:

too much change (pun intended) is only marginally better than none prior to 1999.  I presume I'll get disagreement on this

No disagreement here.  The state quarters started off like gangbusters because it was new and different.  By the halfway point most people were sick of it and just waiting for it to be over so they could finished the sets they had started and be done with it.  The beginning of the ATB quarters were nowhere near as popular as the start of the state quarters even though the designs were better.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 10:50 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Then again, what percentage of the U.S. population (333 million) has numismatic inclinations?

I estimate is less than 1%, probably closer to 1/2 of 1%.

[cladking]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:47 PM, World Colonial said:

 

I don't believe it does much of anything to promote interest in collecting as too much change (pun intended) is only marginally better than none prior to 1999.  I presume I'll get disagreement on this as it can't be proved one way or the other but anecdotal evidence better demonstrates that existing collectors don't find the designs attractive or themes interesting.  From those who measure the health of the "hobby" by the price level, it's evident that attracting collectors through NCLT is a lot more important, as these people are far more profitable customers.

 

Most "existing collectors" see the regular parade of new quarter designs as gilding the pig.   This has nothing to do with the concept or the designs and everything to do with the simple fact that they are "clad" and they are never going to collect clad coins.  But there are millions of new collectors who started because they found these coins interesting, available, and many of them attractive.  The hobby will be saved by these new mostly younger collectors despite efforts of "existing collectors".   

It really matters little whether any specific coin is made for commerce, to spur interest in collecting, or as a means to exchange bullion as money because in the long run collectors have always found all of these coins.   

Even in 1999 it was apparent a ten year program might be a little long for most people, but it was probably the change in the way the new coins were distributed and the extension of the series to include territories and DC that turned off the most people.   

[Zebo]

6 minutes ago, cladking said:

Even in 1999 it was apparent a ten year program might be a little long for most people, but it was probably the change in the way the new coins were distributed and the extension of the series to include territories and DC that turned off the most people.   

Adding the territories and DC was a bit much. 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Adding the territories and DC was a bit much. 

You've got a point there. What's the point of having no representation in Congress if some guy from the District of Columbia comes down during the aftermath of a natural disaster and tosses rolls of paper towels at you before national television?

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Adding the territories and DC was a bit much. 

Hey, Guam is guam, or at least I think it is.

[Henri Charriere]

13 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I estimate is less than 1%, probably closer to 1/2 of 1%.

[With the figures (percentages) heretofore cited, which I believe coincide with those of in pauperis pro-se litigants filing their petitions to be heard by the New York State Court of Appeals and the United States Supreme Court (not to mention those who ultimately prevail on Section 1983 Civil Rights matters, only to be denied review, why am I not surprised at the deplorable state of U.S. coinage and currency today?  Maybe what's needed is a limited run of purposeful errors. One way to jump-start the hobby would be to introduce an anomaly in the regular run of coins which would then become the official "designated by intentional aforethought error."  That's something a TPGS can get involved in. An off-kilter design element or a "blast from the past" feature everyone can relate to, produced in limited quantities.  How does that sound, erwindoc?]  

[World Colonial]

4 hours ago, cladking said:

Most "existing collectors" see the regular parade of new quarter designs as gilding the pig.   This has nothing to do with the concept or the designs and everything to do with the simple fact that they are "clad" and they are never going to collect clad coins.  But there are millions of new collectors who started because they found these coins interesting, available, and many of them attractive.  The hobby will be saved by these new mostly younger collectors despite efforts of "existing collectors".   

It really matters little whether any specific coin is made for commerce, to spur interest in collecting, or as a means to exchange bullion as money because in the long run collectors have always found all of these coins.   

Even in 1999 it was apparent a ten year program might be a little long for most people, but it was probably the change in the way the new coins were distributed and the extension of the series to include territories and DC that turned off the most people.   

It depends upon someone's definition of promoting collecting.

I presume that up to several million might collect this coinage out of pocket change but that's not what is ever discussed in this context.  Whenever I read forum topics or press articles on the "health of the hobby", it's invariably in the context of what can be done to increase prices. 

No one who writes in this context is ever going to care about this coinage because it's never going to be worth any meaningful amount, except for the same reason other common US coinage is now.  They only care to the extent these collectors transition to more expensive coinage which is exactly what 99+% do at any meaningful financial outlay.

[RWB]

The mint director's approach is that "promoting coin collecting" is all about people buying their products. It is not in any sense related to what most collectors call "coin collecting - the hobby." All of the NCLT issues and other modern specialties are maintained because they are very profitable, and that is what the director and secretary of treasury want. The annual U.S. int conference have increasingly concentrated on selling products, not marketing coin collecting.

[World Colonial]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

The mint director's approach is that "promoting coin collecting" is all about people buying their products. It is not in any sense related to what most collectors call "coin collecting - the hobby." All of the NCLT issues and other modern specialties are maintained because they are very profitable, and that is what the director and secretary of treasury want. The annual U.S. int conference have increasingly concentrated on selling products, not marketing coin collecting.

I don't have first hand knowledge of this but infer your conclusion from the product offerings.

The point I was making in my last post is that there is little promoting of actual coin collecting by the "industry" either.  When I read Coin Week (the only one I read regularly), the health of the hobby is entirely financially measured in all the articles (many actually advertisements by auction companies and dealers) I have ever read.

This is also mostly true on coin forums when the topic is specifically discussed.  No one knows the size of the collector base but the price level is at best an imprecise measure.  For US coinage, prices for many coins have been so high for so long that any further increase is predominantly measuring financially motivated buying.  For the low proportion in the highest TPG grades, effectively nothing to do with collecting at all.  Same for whether a coin "beans" or not.

By the volume and quality of research, I would guess that there is more in depth interest than ever, certainly by US collectors in non-US coinage.

What I wrote on the possible fatigue with constantly changing designs is an inference, not "fact".  It also doesn't really matter to me whether the US Mint perpetually changes the designs with what I would describe as uninteresting themes. 

I'm never going to collect it in any format but it has nothing to do with it being clad.  It's because of what I wrote in reply to an earlier post here.  None of the 20th century circulating coinage ever interested me even when I started.

[RWB]

Under Dir Moy, and some of the temporary directors, there was an understanding that the modern NCLT was an valuable part of building future collectors. Advertising had a different emphasis and Moy was interested in building collectors not cash balances. Sec Treas Steven Mnuchin wants profits and 100% utilization of employees and equipment -- just another greedy SOB.

[World Colonial]

30 minutes ago, RWB said:

Under Dir Moy, and some of the temporary directors, there was an understanding that the modern NCLT was an valuable part of building future collectors. Advertising had a different emphasis and Moy was interested in building collectors not cash balances. Sec Treas Steven Mnuchin wants profits and 100% utilization of employees and equipment -- just another greedy SOB.

It's my inference that a noticeable proportion of bigger budget collectors started with NCLT in the recent past.  Bigger budget in this context meaning those who will pay over $300 for a single coin.  I use this cut-off as that's the dividing line for the budget dealer section at the larger coin shows i have attended and my estimate where 80% collect below it.

How many of these transition to what I would describe as actual collecting is an open question.  I'd guess that the majority who do still predominantly buy what I classify as "investment" substitutes: other (world) NCLT, high grade Morgan dollars, and generic (mostly lower premium) pre-1933 US gold.

[VKurtB]

14 hours ago, RWB said:

Under Dir Moy, and some of the temporary directors, there was an understanding that the modern NCLT was an valuable part of building future collectors. Advertising had a different emphasis and Moy was interested in building collectors not cash balances. Sec Treas Steven Mnuchin wants profits and 100% utilization of employees and equipment -- just another greedy SOB.

There was a whole 8 years between Moy and The Munchkin, you know.

[RWB]

Yes. However, the present Sec Treas brought a different, profit-is-king approach. The typical short-term gain and blame the long-term loss on someone else.

[VKurtB]

27 minutes ago, RWB said:

Yes. However, the present Sec Treas brought a different, profit-is-king approach. The typical short-term gain and blame the long-term loss on someone else.

I'm fairly certain the current "usurious" U.S. Mint pricing is the result of a Congressional mandate.

[Conder101]

On 9/16/2020 at 9:32 AM, cladking said:

But there are millions of new collectors who started because they found these coins interesting, available, and many of them attractive.  The hobby will be saved by these new mostly younger collectors despite efforts of "existing collectors".   

This is probably true.  MANY new collectors got started with interest in the state quarters back in 1999.  If you take as typical most YOUNG collectors developing and interest around 10,sticking with it a few years and then dropping out again, then most of those new "collectors" are around 30 or so now so we hopefully will start to see an influx of them returning starting sometime in the next ten years.

 

On 9/16/2020 at 11:37 AM, VKurtB said:

Hey, Guam is guam, or at least I think it is.

If it hasn't capsized.

 

23 hours ago, World Colonial said:

They only care to the extent these collectors transition to more expensive coinage which is exactly what 99+% do at any meaningful financial outlay.

But if you don't get them started, then there are no collectors to transition..

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

If it hasn't capsized.

Courtesy of the dumbest member of Congress, possibly in the history of the Republic. Rep. Henry C. "Hank" Johnson Jr. of the Great State of Georgia. And remember, that includes even Maxine Waters.

[gmarguli]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Courtesy of the dumbest member of Congress, possibly in the history of the Republic. Rep. Henry C. "Hank" Johnson Jr. of the Great State of Georgia. And remember, that includes even Maxine Waters.

That's a bold statement. 

I wish we had a commemorative series with politicians and their dumbest statements. I'd collect that. Hey, I'll trade you my MS67 Marion Berry, If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very very low crime rate for your MS66 AOC, Buffalo could fly if we'd just stop eating their wings.

 

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

That's a bold statement. 

I wish we had a commemorative series with politicians and their dumbest statements. I'd collect that. Hey, I'll trade you my MS67 Marion Berry, If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very very low crime rate for your MS66 AOC, Buffalo could fly if we'd just stop eating their wings.

 

I watched Johnson questioning A.G. Barr, and I could swear I heard Barr think, "I have a brain-damaged dog smarter than you." But to bring it back to numismatics, Congressman Johnson's opinion matters more regarding what we produce in the U.S. than RWB, Q. David Bowers, Jeff Garrett and Don Kagin combined. Think about that.

Edited September 17, 2020 by VKurtB