Dueling TPG Experts - What Would You Do? 1 1

[VKurtB]

14 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Off-topic... with all your experience traipsing around branch mints and having had lunch with the mint director, I wonder whether you can clear up a suspicion I have harbored for a long time. True or patently false: some so-called coin errors are nothing more than the product of a compromised mint employee unethically intercepted after hours by an unknown party with a scheme and a bribe.

Are you speaking of intentionally created "monsters", or mere access to the unintentionally created ones? Both are true, and both are the main sources of so-called errors lately. Many unintentional errors, which get into the giant ballistic bags and exit the mint legitimately, are discovered, hoarded, and sold by the employees of firms that do the coin rolling. Hardly a surprise, because many serious errors wouldn't fit in a roll. SOMEBODY about five blocks from where I type this is making a nice side income selling mangled coins.

Edited August 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Are you speaking of intentionally created "monsters", or mere access to the unintentionally created ones? Both are true, and both are the main sources of so-called errors lately. Many unintentional errors, which get into the giant ballistic bags and exit the mint legitimately, are discovered, hoarded, and sold by the employees of firms that do the coin rolling. Hardly a surprise, because many serious errors wouldn't fit in a roll. SOMEBODY about five blocks from where I type this is making a nice side income selling mangled coins.

"Monster" suspicion confirmed. There was a coin concern (I do not recall the name) which had a large inventory of simply impossible errors, like a single off-metal planchet that somehow made its way into the minting process. Probably more difficult to do at the BEP where currency is printed in sheets. Thanks. 

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

"Monster" suspicion confirmed. There was a coin concern (I do not recall the name) which had a large inventory of simply impossible errors, like a single off-metal planchet that somehow made its way into the minting process. Probably more difficult to do at the BEP where currency is printed in sheets. Thanks. 

There are a quite small set of dealers who specialize in the truly "crazy" errors, not to be confused with the penchant of many newcomers to collect minor varieties, which are mostly not actual "errors".

[RonnieR131]

I started saving my 'crazy' errors, even put names on them. Monetarily worthless, but fun. Heck, if it weren't for errors, half of us wouldn't even be here.

[MAULEMALL]

Lord I miss the little ANAC/ PNG holders.. I much preferred the size.. 

And ANACS modern coinage grading was brutal.. 

Not to mention the beautiful cobalt blue rings that Morgans seemed acquire...

[Insider]

On 7/31/2020 at 3:01 PM, VKurtB said:

If both TPG's involved are among "the big two", our hosts and the four-letter "word" starting with "P", you have a real conundrum. If either is ANACS or ICG, trust me, they're wrong and the one from the "big two" is right. If neither is among the "big two", your story has wasted my time.

 

Over the decades, I've worked at three of today's major TPGS (not  PCGS) plus two others.  Therefore, I'll write that your post is the most ignorant opinion I've read this year!  This thread started as a disaster in the making and crashed with your comment. 

Obviously, you are unaware of the fact that some of the professional authenticators at ANACS and ICG have been detecting fakes long before some of the experts at the top two services were out of school!   With the exception of Rick Montgomery, most of the top professionals at NGC and PCGS began as coin dealers.  Enough said.  Thankfully, over time, those ex-dealers at the top two services have gained the respect of their peers when they became extremely good at what they do.  So today, there is very little difference between the pool of expertise at all four major services.  Still, for some reason - I can think of a few possibilities - the experts at PCGS and NGC have EACH slabbed more fakes as genuine than both ANACS and ICG combined!  That's what makes your post totally uninformed. 

As to this thread.  Quit playing games.  WHAT IS THE COIN!   That makes a big difference.  Some coins are better sent to one service while the other service is better at authenticating other types.  As to detail grading vs straight grading  the same coin - it happens ALL THE TIME.  In my experience, ICG and ANACS tend to be less forgiving for cleaned or damaged coins.   

This is the NGC forum.  Otherwise, I would tell you the very simple solution to your question.  Since I cannot do that, I advise the OP to call NGC and ask to speak to Rick.  Lay out the case in ONE MINUTE and ask him what you should do - he is a busy person. I think you'll be satisfied with the result.     

[Insider]

PS   With FEW exceptions ANYONE else who sends an ANACS or ICG slab to NGC or PCGS for cross or upgrade is going to be disappointed most of the time.  Why should a top two TPGS admit that a second tier TPGS that folks dismiss with jokes can grade on par with them and cross the coin making it more valuable in their slab?   Send them in raw for a better shot.  

[Henri Charriere]

6 hours ago, Insider said:

PS   With FEW exceptions ANYONE else who sends an ANACS or ICG slab to NGC or PCGS for cross or upgrade is going to be disappointed most of the time.  Why should a top two TPGS admit that a second tier TPGS that folks dismiss with jokes can grade on par with them and cross the coin making it more valuable in their slab?   Send them in raw for a better shot.

7 hours ago, Insider said:

 

Over the decades, I've worked at three of today's major TPGS (not  PCGS) plus two others.  Therefore, I'll write that your post is the most ignorant opinion I've read this year!  This thread started as a disaster in the making and crashed with your comment. 

Obviously, you are unaware of the fact that some of the professional authenticators at ANACS and ICG have been detecting fakes long before some of the experts at the top two services were out of school!   With the exception of Rick Montgomery, most of the top professionals at NGC and PCGS began as coin dealers.  Enough said.  Thankfully, over time, those ex-dealers at the top two services have gained the respect of their peers when they became extremely good at what they do.  So today, there is very little difference between the pool of expertise at all four major services.  Still, for some reason - I can think of a few possibilities - the experts at PCGS and NGC have EACH slabbed more fakes as genuine than both ANACS and ICG combined!  That's what makes your post totally uninformed. 

As to this thread.  Quit playing games.  WHAT IS THE COIN!   That makes a big difference.  Some coins are better sent to one service while the other service is better at authenticating other types.  As to detail grading vs straight grading  the same coin - it happens ALL THE TIME.  In my experience, ICG and ANACS tend to be less forgiving for cleaned or damaged coins.   

This is the NGC forum.  Otherwise, I would tell you the very simple solution to your question.  Since I cannot do that, I advise the OP to call NGC and ask to speak to Rick.  Lay out the case in ONE MINUTE and ask him what you should do - he is a busy person. I think you'll be satisfied with the result.     

 

[Having sustained third-degree burns on my left hand by merely holding the cellphone containing your rolling, blistering commentary, I will continue to hunt-and-peck with my unscalded right.] 

In the earliest Hebrew-Aramaic scrolls, God's unique name, represented by a tetragrammaton, was never pronounced. King James substituted JHVH (or YHWH) with "LORD," using "Lord" to refer to his son, hence the awkward: "The LORD said unto my Lord,...."  Ps 110:1 KJV.

Your commentary which addresses an [apparently] forbidden subject, the gods comprising TPGS, lays bare a series of fascinating facts I personally find interesting.  For example, by extension, who better to grade a French coin than the folks affiliated with the foreign office of the TPGS located in that country?  (As an old time NYC police detective convincingly argued, "if you are shot, you want to be taken to Harlem or Lincoln  -- public hospitals with ample experience in treating gun-shot wounds." Not a private facility with limited exposure to mayhem.)  I agree with your argument, as so eloquently set forth, that, if I may use the analogy, is not unlike baseball teams with "greatness" displayed at intervals, according to the year and experience of the players employed. Likewise, the authoritativeness of a TPG is dependent on the graders then employed. Valid point. Does not Michelin rate restaurants based on, among other things, the master chef choreographing activities in the kitchen? Unskilled chef, poor meal quality. Tellingly, NGC reportedly will allow PCGS-graded coins in their Set Registry -- with the exception of World Gold which requires a certain expertise to process owing to disparate grading systems.  Thank you for taking the time to offer your insight! (I have to go  seek first-aid for my injuries.)

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/31/2020 at 1:04 PM, ronnie stein said:

Of course tomorrow, when my checking account is a little short to pay all of the bills, I might think differently, expertly certified as genuine, I believe I'll just go with that.    

Had to come back and review these postings...  I had (still have) a situation where a coin I bought, described as a "frosty" gem in MS-66, arrived with a quite evident latent fingerprint. What to do? I called the dealer but, though he offered to take it back, quickly realized he was not responsible for the grade. Would it have been an MS-67 without the "distraction"? Only a grader would know for sure.  So I have the coin and simple courtesy requires me to mention the defect should I ever be inclined to sell it. [If I were the grader, I would have consulted my fellow graders to see if the least intrusive restoration/conservation procedure could be utilized -- as a matter of course, and courtesy, but I guess the very suggestion is sacrilegious.]

Edited August 8, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Missing end bracket

[gmarguli]

16 hours ago, Insider said:

As to this thread.  Quit playing games.  WHAT IS THE COIN!   That makes a big difference.  Some coins are better sent to one service while the other service is better at authenticating other types.  

Not one coin, but several - around a dozen. While they are from the same country, there are several different types. And as I stated before, I believe that both PCGS & NGC graders are highly competent in this area. 

[Insider]

15 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Had to come back and review these postings...  I had (still have) a situation where a coin I bought, described as a "frosty" gem in MS-66, arrived with a quite evident latent fingerprint. What to do? I called the dealer but, though he offered to take it back, quickly realized he was not responsible for the grade. Would it have been an MS-67 without the "distraction"? Only a grader would know for sure.  So I have the coin and simple courtesy requires me to mention the defect should I ever be inclined to sell it. [If I were the grader, I would have consulted my fellow graders to see if the least intrusive restoration/conservation procedure could be utilized -- as a matter of course, and courtesy, but I guess the very suggestion is sacrilegious.]

This thread is NOT about differences in the grade opinion assigned to a coin by any TPGS.  Grading is subjective, authentication IS NOT. 

[Insider]

9 hours ago, gmarguli said:

Not one coin, but several - around a dozen. While they are from the same country, there are several different types. And as I stated before, I believe that both PCGS & NGC graders are highly competent in this area. 

I guess we are still playing games.  What country, what coins?  We live in the USA.  How many TPGS authenticators are experts in the coinage of  certain countries?   Example:  I didn't grow up in Russia and collect Russian coins my entire life until I joined the staff at the Hermitage Museum as an authenticator.  That makes me an expert in Russian Numismatics yet I would know a little about US coins too because counterfeits all over the world have certain characteristics.   So I probably would think ALL the very deceptive US fakes that have passed as genuine by American authenticators were genuine too.  Most of the TPGS folks are experts in US coins.  THEY HAD TO LEARN anything about the coinage of other countries because it did not come naturally.   Perhaps a consultant deserves some of the blame. 

Anyway, one thing is certain, the mystery coins are either genuine or they are not.  

[Insider]

15 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Had to come back and review these postings...  I had (still have) a situation where a coin I bought, described as a "frosty" gem in MS-66, arrived with a quite evident latent fingerprint. What to do? I called the dealer but, though he offered to take it back, quickly realized he was not responsible for the grade. Would it have been an MS-67 without the "distraction"? Only a grader would know for sure.  So I have the coin and simple courtesy requires me to mention the defect should I ever be inclined to sell it. [If I were the grader, I would have consulted my fellow graders to see if the least intrusive restoration/conservation procedure could be utilized -- as a matter of course, and courtesy, but I guess the very suggestion is sacrilegious.]

At every service I've worked at EVERYONE has been instructed to immediately report any damage (hairline, fingerprint, etc) THEY do to a coin so that it can be either fixed or noted in the records.   It starts with the people opening the mail who look for  "fresh" damage that was on the coin as received.   I personally remove a smear or print from a customer's coin (that occurred after the coin was graded) several times a year.

Send the coin back and ask for it to be fixed.   

[VKurtB]

@Insider, I have confidence in you, just not in your current firm as presently constituted. At the 2016 winter FUN show, I carried an ICG slabbed 1916-D Walker in MS63, with instructions to get it in an NGC slab. I cracked it and left the gasket around it and put it in a 2.5x2.5 Saflip. At show grading. I got it the next day. MS63 again. Then I showed it to your people, maybe even YOU. They said it was at least a 64 and maybe a 64+. Where are the ethics, sir? Your firm already had graded it a 63 when submitted raw, but then try to “up sell” me another 1 to 1+ grades. Sorry, your firm is dead to me. And personally I like you. 
 

When it was Mr. Taylor’s firm, I used it a lot.

Edited August 9, 2020 by VKurtB

[kbbpll]

29 minutes ago, Insider said:

I guess we are still playing games.

Yeah, it's starting to sound like we're preserving the option to go the shady route and not leave any tracks. Or not burn bridges with a TPG that loves to burn bridges (I'm starting to guess which one graded them genuine). I wonder how the Hobby Protection Act might play into this, as far as the "knows or should have known" clause and the 10k value. Which is why I said previously, as the middleman, to maybe ask your attorney. I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole, but I'm not in the business.

[VKurtB]

“Upon further review” of my notes, the incident above was at the 2017 FUN show, not the 2016. It was at Ft. Lauderdale, when there was an airport terror attack.

[Insider]

7 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

@Insider, I have confidence in you, just not in your current firm as presently constituted. At the 2016 winter FUN show, I carried an ICG slabbed 1916-D Walker in MS63, with instructions to get it in an NGC slab. I cracked it and left the gasket around it and put it in a 2.5x2.5 Saflip. At show grading. I got it the next day. MS63 again. Then I showed it to your people, maybe even YOU. They said it was at least a 64 and maybe a 64+. Where are the ethics, sir? Your firm already had graded it a 63 when submitted raw, but then try to “up sell” me another 1 to 1+ grades. Sorry, your firm is dead to me. And personally I like you. 
 

When it was Mr. Taylor’s firm, I used it a lot.

LOL,  

1.  There is a sign at our table that the FREE opinions given to anyone during all hours the show is open MAY NOT BE the same as the grade assigned in the grading room at the office.  There are obvious reasons for this.

2.  It probably was not me because I can usually hit the PCGS or NGC grade on a coin on the button and tell you why they chose that grade.  

3.  Ethics is not involved at all.  Whomever you showed the coin to gave you an honest opinion.  Obviously, since it was NOT in an ICG holder at the time, our grader never knew it was ever graded by ICG.   

4.  I'm very sorry you didn't send it in as you may have gotten the 64 grade as the coin sounds very nice to be in an NGC 63 slab.  It would be easier to sell in the NGC holder but I suspect you could have squeezed a tiny bit more in a second tier 64 holder.  

5. ICG does not try to sell up grades.  I'm going to guess that we reject about 15% of the NGC or PCGS graded coins for cross and 98% sent for upgrade.  The dirty little secret is that all four major services grade about the same.  You just pay more and wait longer at the larger two top services.  The trade off is the coins in their slabs are usually worth more money because more collectors prefer them. 

6. You may wish to ask around why your friend Mr. Taylor lives outside the country.  

 

PS  I like virtually everyone so I'm sure I would also like you but business is business and you need to please yourself.    

[Insider]

42 minutes ago, kbbpll said:

Yeah, it's starting to sound like we're preserving the option to go the shady route and not leave any tracks. Or not burn bridges with a TPG that loves to burn bridges (I'm starting to guess which one graded them genuine). I wonder how the Hobby Protection Act might play into this, as far as the "knows or should have known" clause and the 10k value. Which is why I said previously, as the middleman, to maybe ask your attorney. I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole, but I'm not in the business.

This can be done safely:    Service X called my 1754 Guinea counterfeit.  I sent it to service Y and they slabbed it as genuine.

Furthermore, IMHO, ANY TPGS that is not willing to admit to making a mistake is LOW RENT.   When I joined the ANA's service and discovered a state-of the-art 1857 $3 that the best dealers in the country claimed was genuine we had a recall of several of the same counterfeits that had been given certificates previously.  Then we published the "new" fake.

Look, it is very embarrassing to call a counterfeit genuine!  I have been told that I should never admit to doing that as it would hurt my reputation.  Well, I've missed a few before, usually because of inattention but that's the reason more than one authenticator looks at the coins.  My most embarrassing "miss" happen at NGC.   While in the NCS Lab a grader brought me a copper pattern.  I looked at the coin, stuck it under the scope at low power, declared it genuine, sent him on his way, and went back to conserving coins.  The entire encounter took less than a minute including the time I walked over to the scope at my desk.  About two minutes later another grader brought the same coin in.  Apparently, he was asked about the coin first by the grader who brought it to me and he had said it was a fake. Of course I felt like he was wasting my time  - I'm the authentication expert - but I walked back to my scope, raised the power and studied the coin for about two seconds and said it was n obvious counterfeit.  I didn't hear another thing about it but I guarantee the guys lost a great deal of faith in me.   

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Insider

[Henri Charriere]

6 hours ago, Insider said:

I didn't hear another thing about it but I guarantee the guys lost a great deal of faith in me.   

 

 

I cannot speak for others but I wouldn't want to rely on "Yes" men who pride consistency over truth and honesty. I would want someone to "give it to me straight."  It takes a considerable man to own up to his mistakes.

[Insider]

10 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I cannot speak for others but I wouldn't want to rely on "Yes" men who pride consistency over truth and honesty. I would want someone to "give it to me straight."  It takes a considerable man to own up to his mistakes.

Admitting a mistake is very easy and hopefully you learn from them.  However, making a mistake can be both very costly and VERY embarrassing.   Consider Authenticators as heart surgeons.  Mistakes matter.  Reputations matter too.  

[MarkFeld]

19 hours ago, VKurtB said:

@Insider, I have confidence in you, just not in your current firm as presently constituted. At the 2016 winter FUN show, I carried an ICG slabbed 1916-D Walker in MS63, with instructions to get it in an NGC slab. I cracked it and left the gasket around it and put it in a 2.5x2.5 Saflip. At show grading. I got it the next day. MS63 again. Then I showed it to your people, maybe even YOU. They said it was at least a 64 and maybe a 64+. Where are the ethics, sir? Your firm already had graded it a 63 when submitted raw, but then try to “up sell” me another 1 to 1+ grades. Sorry, your firm is dead to me. And personally I like you. 
 

When it was Mr. Taylor’s firm, I used it a lot.

It has nothing to do with ethics. And the same has happened with the top two grading companies, as well.

Edited August 10, 2020 by MarkFeld

[Henri Charriere]

19 hours ago, Insider said:

  The dirty little secret is that all four major services grade about the same.  You just pay more and wait longer...

Someone, I forget who, posited in these chat rooms, that accepting cross-grade requests would "dilute" the brand. I say, Nonsense!  I forsee a merger in the future, like NGC/PCGS et al., or a rechristening, like EXXON, and an end to the pretense of "brands" with the adoption of a scale everyone can live with, without exception or compromise, whether that be Sheldon, with a helpful Photograde-type accompaniment, or some other name. ONE brand with East and West portals, and branch brands as the volume dictates. One wonders how we managed with just the Red Book for nearly two score years. Everybody in favor, say Aye!

 

[MarkFeld]

8 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Someone, I forget who, posited in these chat rooms, that accepting cross-grade requests would "dilute" the brand. I say, Nonsense!  I forsee a merger in the future, like NGC/PCGS et al., or a rechristening, like EXXON, and an end to the pretense of "brands" with the adoption of a scale everyone can live with, without exception or compromise, whether that be Sheldon, with a helpful Photograde-type accompaniment, or some other name. ONE brand with East and West portals, and branch brands as the volume dictates. One wonders how we managed with just the Red Book for nearly two score years. Everybody in favor, say Aye!

 

That which you foresee, will never happen. And “never” is a word I use extremely sparingly.

[gmarguli]

The idea that PCGS & NGC would merge is ridiculous. Not only would it never pass government approval, but there is too much money to be made by both services with the crossing/cross grading of coins. 

[Henri Charriere]

44 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

That which you foresee, will never happen. And “never” is a word I use extremely sparingly.

Never say never!  Never underestimate the power of the economic juggernauts amongst us that devour at will. These are perilous times. Lord & Taylor, around since forever, gone. Brooks Brothers, gone too.  The Covid-19 virus has changed the landscape. How many people watching right now ever thought they would cancel a coin convention? I have seen a lot of surprises in my lifetime. Someone's loss is another's opportunity. The pending merger, as far as I am concerned, is a done deal. A few years hence you will marvel at the accurate prediction made by that rank amateur, ME! The one they called Troll!

Edited August 10, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Word addition.

[Henri Charriere]

15 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

The idea that PCGS & NGC would merge is ridiculous. Not only would it never pass government approval, but there is too much money to be made by both services with the crossing/cross grading of coins. 

Who needs the cross-grade concession when you have artificial constructs like First Strikes, Limited Editions, special proprietary labels for that rare coin guy on tv, monster boxes certified retroactively and the various mints releasing stockpiled coins nobody knew were there, gold coins formerly housed anonymously in Europe to circumvent U.S. law, shipwrecked coins, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. You're talking small potatoes; I am talking Big Picture IMNSHO -- and I've got the rank amateur status to back it all up! 😉

Edited August 10, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Word addition.

[Alex in PA.]

10 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Never say never!  Never underestimate the power of the economic juggernauts amongst us that devour at will. These are perilous times. Lord & Taylor, around since forever, gone. Brooks Brothers, gone too.  The Covid-19 virus has changed the landscape. How many people watching right now ever thought they would cancel a coin convention? I have seen a lot of surprises in my lifetime. Someone's loss is another's opportunity. The pending merger, as far as I am concerned, is a done deal. A few years hence you will marvel at the accurate prediction made by that rank amateur, ME! The one they called Troll!

Quintus, I do not believe you are a Troll.  I think you are very knowledgeable about this business and that you have been around it a long time.  Your writing reminds me of someone from the past.  

[VKurtB]

14 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

It has nothing to do with ethics. And the same has happened with the top two grading companies, as well.

Does it have anything to do with ethics when I told him that it had just come out of an ICG MS63 slab, as I did on that occasion?

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

Quintus, I do not believe you are a Troll.  I think you are very knowledgeable about this business and that you have been around it a long time.  Your writing reminds me of someone from the past.  

This is the baseless pejorative on-line term that has been leveled against me by those who I suspect do not appreciate, or perhaps do not understand, my brand of humor and take exception to my thoughts -- and support of underdogs who simply wish to get a second- third- or fourth opinion without being bullied and run out of town.  You know you are onto something when the numismatic experts among us, shoot down a proposal to simply present a thorn in our collective sides (some eight pages long) to another coin expert as a waste of time only to find out, after referral and consultation, that the expert was delighted to investigate the matter.  Troll?  I've been called worse.  And, Alex, thanks for making the Forum a place where we can all express our thoughts and feelings freely and without fear of unwarranted criticism.

P.S.  Regarding the matter of merger of TPGS...  though I don't deign to know the inside story, I suspect some of the same naysayers now said the same thing re Bowers joining with Stack's, i.e., "Never happen! You don't know what you're talking about! The government won't allow it!"   Really! They are businesses and businesses are run subject to bottom lines. Whether by hostile takeover or a simple determination that merger would be in their best interests, it can happen. You cannot rule it out. Law firms routinely reorganize, merge and dissolve because that's the way businesses survive. And with the Covid-19, we are entering uncharted territory. Anything can happen.

[MarkFeld]

21 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Does it have anything to do with ethics when I told him that it had just come out of an ICG MS63 slab, as I did on that occasion?

Based on that limited information, no, it does not. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he was providing an honest assessment.