What if... 1 1

[Zebo]

I've been watching many on-line ANA seminars discussing a variety of topics lately - and I'm enjoying the heck out of them. Just a few of the topics include Italian coins, Mexican coins, Morgan Dollars, Counterfiets, grading, CAC and most recently die varieties. There are many more interesting seminars scheduled. While I would love to attend the ANA summer seminar, I cannot for various reasons, so this has been great. They do not go in depth as they would during the summer seminar - maybe two hours instead of a few days, but they are very worthwhile and some I hope they continue.

Now back to my What if: what if there were as many varieties seekers for world coins as U.S. Coinage? I collect some varieties in my world Series, but it would be too cost prohibitive to collect all - or even a substantial subset of them. For other series - it is quite doable, but varieties has not caught on to the extent of US collections. The market may not be the same, but there could be some very interesting research along with many new and exciting books published. 

Anyone currently in the research or publication mode? 

[Big Nub numismatics]

The ANA seminars have been great! Not as great as the actual thing though. Errors tend to be overlooked on foreign markets as well. 

What kind of research would need to be done? 

[World Colonial]

This subject comes up periodically from different angles on coin forums.  There is no never going to be any significant variety or error collecting of world coinage.  Here are my reasons:

One: The collector base for most series is too small and except for a very minimal proportion, that's not changing.

Two: A much higher proportion of world coinage is too scarce to be collected in this format.  It's simply not practical.  The series are too hard to complete by date.  In the coinage I collect (now or before), there are references for pillar coinage but I cannot even find many of the dates at all or only in damaged or problem state.  For South Africa Union, there is a partial variety guide but presumably the author didn't attempt to perform identification for all denominations because it was too much trouble.

The primary reason this type of collecting is somewhat popular with US coinage is for one of two additional reasons.  First, the collector base is large enough where a noticeable number will attempt it and one reason they will is because most are very easy to complete by date/MM.  Anyone who has the money can complete most US series in one day, a week, a month or some other short time period except in some narrow quality.  Second, a disproportionate percentage of US series and types are too expensive for the (vast) majority of the US collector base, though this partially depends upon the quality they will accept.

With world coinage, most collectors aren't going to bother with what they consider minutia when a much higher proportion are affordable to them and they can collect a much wider variety even in better quality.

[kbbpll]

There are a lot of varieties in Canadian coins and many people collect them. My profile pic for example is a famous one. Some Canadian collectors focus on 1859 large cent varieties, there must be 100 of them, just like US collectors go after VAMs. Back sections of the Charlton guides list varieties for different series across various editions. I would imagine collectors within specific countries are familiar with varieties that US collectors aren't.

[Fenntucky Mike]

 

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

One: The collector base for most series is too small

Yes, if you're talking about getting a TPG to recognize more varieties. 

I have several foreign sets that include varieties. Getting the varieties recognized by a TPG is a challenge, 9 out of 10 would be rejected due to popularity (a collector base), not for lack of documentation or examples. Varieties can be well documented in the coins country of origin, in books from that country or region and even by the mint/producer themselves but for the most part if the variety is not in the Standard Catalog you'll have a hard time getting it recognized. 

I think there is just as large a pool of variety seekers for world coinage as U.S. coinage but but divide that pool up by X number of countries and you just don't have the collector per capita need to get most world varieties recognized. Even though, in that region or country variety/error collecting is most likely very popular.

TPG's lack of interest in recognizing "low value" (in the U.S.) world varieties at least in part discourages collecting along those lines. There is not enough interest so the TPG's don't want to invest the time which stifles growth in that area of collecting. For my current focus (Ukrainian coinage) there are many books, papers and examples of varieties and errors. It's a very well documented area and almost none would be TPG accepted. All of mine are safely tucked away in 2 x 2's.

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

 

Yes, if you're talking about getting a TPG to recognize more varieties. 

I have several foreign sets that include varieties. Getting the varieties recognized by a TPG is a challenge, 9 out of 10 would be rejected due to popularity (a collector base), not for lack of documentation or examples. Varieties can be well documented in the coins country of origin, in books from that country or region and even by the mint/producer themselves but for the most part if the variety is not in the Standard Catalog you'll have a hard time getting it recognized. 

I think there is just as large a pool of variety seekers for world coinage as U.S. coinage but but divide that pool up by X number of countries and you just don't have the collector per capita need to get most world varieties recognized. Even though, in that region or country variety/error collecting is most likely very popular.

TPG's lack of interest in recognizing "low value" (in the U.S.) world varieties at least in part discourages collecting along those lines. There is not enough interest so the TPG's don't want to invest the time which stifles growth in that area of collecting. For my current focus (Ukrainian coinage) there are many books, papers and examples of varieties and errors. It's a very well documented area and almost none would be TPG accepted. All of mine are safely tucked away in 2 x 2's.

Some of it is the lack of reference material and TPG recognition but that's not the primary basis of my prior post.  Collectors outside the US disproportionately do not care about TPG.  It's mostly inference into US collector views of this variety collecting but don't believe it represents even the same level of interest as it does with US coins.

My contention is that most collectors do not find most series remotely interesting enough to bother with it.  It's viewed as numismatic minutia.  That's why I made the comments on US collecting practices.  Look at the level of die variety collecting within the most widely collected (viewed as the most "popular") US series.  There is almost none or if there is, the price level certainly doesn't reflect it and it's predominantly "cherry picking" at nominal if any premium.  Predominantly varieties listed in the Red Book "necessary" for a "complete set" with almost no interest in the others.

This includes the series covered by the other active thread on the "golden era" such as Wheat cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes and WLH.  There is more (or appears to be) from US moderns but outside of the Lincoln cent, not much of it either.  Most of it appears to be "cherry picking".

Even with my primary interest where I buy almost nothing else now, I don't collect by variety either.  It's a combination of the lack of available specimens and budget (if the coins actually existed in higher quality in any volume) but also because there is hardly any difference with over 90%.  I'll buy multiples if I can find the coin at an acceptable price too.  If it's a different variety (like 1755 Peru JM and JD assayers on my two MS-65 half real), great.  But I didn't buy it because of the variety.  I bought it because the coin is rare and would rather own duplicates versus something else.

If variety or error collecting is very popular anywhere else, I have never heard of it.  Coin collecting generically isn't very popular either hardly anywhere else.  Not by my standards, as I'd consider maybe 20 to 30 countries where the scale is anything I would call meaningful.

In the US, I wouldn't describe either as very popular either.  The US price level is outrageously high (relative to everywhere else and what most collectors can afford), so errors are popular enough where the price level is respectable (usually in the two and three digits for US modern errors which is most).  For varieties, it's mostly concentrated in a very low number of series with the largest collector bases apparently being EAC and Capped Bust halves.

There are no absolutes but think of it this way.  For the collector of British coinage, there is over 2000 years to collect (including ancients) at mostly affordable prices except in the higher or highest TPG grades.  British coinage is or appears to be the most researched along with US and ancient Greece/Rome, so there is no shortage of reference material.  The vast majority of collectors appear to prefer to collect different sets (such as by monarch) because it's a lot more interesting to them.

[kbbpll]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

If variety or error collecting is very popular anywhere else, I have never heard of it.

There are 575 total here in the NGC pop report for 9 Canadian 1947 $1 varieties alone. Arnprior, short waterlines, large beads, small beads, shoulder fold or none - hundreds more. In Thailand, an alley along the Grand Palace area used to be lined with coin vendors (because the national coin museum was there). Whenever a commemorative bill came out (60th anniversary on the throne 60 baht bills, etc), people snapped them up by the millions. On my last trip over there last summer, I took note of how many little shops devoted to stuff unrelated to coins had a small sample of coins or bills for sale in a case. "Popular" is how you want to define it, I guess, and depends on your personal experience and niche.

[Henri Charriere]

7 hours ago, World Colonial said:

 Anyone who has the money can complete most US series in one day, a week, a month or some other short time period except in some narrow quality.  

Talk about the desirability of assembling a collection in short order!  To think I was derided by one of the heavyweights on this forum for simply stating my intent at the very outset of assembling a collection of French 20-franc gold roosters in 90 days. The fact of the matter is we are talking a grand total of 16 coins, half of which are generally unavailable in any grade, with plenty of room for upgrading. I can hear the naysayers now: "Aw c'mon.  If we wanted to bust your chops, we'd've told you to go home and get your shinebox."  THANK YOU WORLD COLONIAL FOR VINDICATING ME!  While I have the No. 1 compilation elsewhere -- with plenty of room for upgrading as specimens become available, it would never occur to me to deride another collector's niche fixation. If someone were seized with the compulsion to complete a set of $4 gold Stellas, I certainly would not begrudge his choice. To those who enjoy tearing down, try uplifting instead. Bear in mind, there may be Young Numismatists watching!

[World Colonial]

16 hours ago, kbbpll said:

There are 575 total here in the NGC pop report for 9 Canadian 1947 $1 varieties alone. Arnprior, short waterlines, large beads, small beads, shoulder fold or none - hundreds more. In Thailand, an alley along the Grand Palace area used to be lined with coin vendors (because the national coin museum was there). Whenever a commemorative bill came out (60th anniversary on the throne 60 baht bills, etc), people snapped them up by the millions. On my last trip over there last summer, I took note of how many little shops devoted to stuff unrelated to coins had a small sample of coins or bills for sale in a case. "Popular" is how you want to define it, I guess, and depends on your personal experience and niche.

Your post covers a handful of individual coins from thousands of series.  I've noticed similar counts for a very low number of other coins through my review of the population data and auction records.

My guess is that this Canadian 1947 $1 is also a fake "key" date under the assumption it is included in price guides.  That's exactly why the most widely collected die varieties (or errors) in the most widely collected 20th century US series are so expensive despite being so incredibly common: 1922 "No D" cent, 1955 DD cent, 1937 3-leg Buffalo nickel, and the two 1942 overdate Mercury dimes.  All are very common and none are necessary for a complete date/MM set for any of these series.  Collectors include it by habit as all are included in albums, the Red Book (and now registry sets) longer than I have been alive.  A very low number of others are (somewhat) expensive, also due to inclusion in more recent references or in registry sets.  Same collector behavior pattern.

There is also a clear difference between popular and an actual collector preference.  Many "popular" coins and series actually have a low preference.  The coin or series is liked (by those who buy it) but predominantly widely collected because it's common and cheap; the collector usually prefers other coins more but doesn't buy it for a variety of reasons.  This should be evident in the declining prices for most 20th century US classic series which presumably have lost "share of wallet" to (world) NCLT.

[World Colonial]

16 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Talk about the desirability of assembling a collection in short order!  To think I was derided by one of the heavyweights on this forum for simply stating my intent at the very outset of assembling a collection of French 20-franc gold roosters in 90 days. The fact of the matter is we are talking a grand total of 16 coins, half of which are generally unavailable in any grade, with plenty of room for upgrading. I can hear the naysayers now: "Aw c'mon.  If we wanted to bust your chops, we'd've told you to go home and get your shinebox."  THANK YOU WORLD COLONIAL FOR VINDICATING ME!  While I have the No. 1 compilation elsewhere -- with plenty of room for upgrading as specimens become available, it would never occur to me to deride another collector's niche fixation. If someone were seized with the compulsion to complete a set of $4 gold Stellas, I certainly would not begrudge his choice. To those who enjoy tearing down, try uplifting instead. Bear in mind, there may be Young Numismatists watching!

I have expressed the sentiments in the quote you extracted from my post many times but it's not to knock anyone's collecting.  It's just a fact and an evident explanation for common current (US) collecting behavior.

Decades ago when most US collecting was out of circulation, there was almost no specialization in these series and my explanation for it is that the sets were a lot more difficult to complete since most weren't paying any premiums.  Now with improved communication mostly due to the internet, collectors need to find a new challenge.  This is my explanation for the increased US preference for full strikes (such as FS and FB), toning, errors, die varieties and registry competition.  A coin or series which can be bought (essentially) on demand or short notice (in practically any quality) can be made as easy or difficult as the collector chooses based upon the application of this narrow criteria.

[kbbpll]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

Your post covers a handful of individual coins from thousands of series.

My point was to illustrate a handful of examples. There are varieties all over Canadian coinage and people do collect them. Their dollar collections are not complete without at least both the 1947 pointed and blunt 7. 1926 5c near and far 6. Etc etc. Price differences across the board indicate desire for nearly all varieties. I was merely countering your assertion that "There is no never going to be any significant variety or error collecting of world coinage" but I don't want to argue about it. 

[World Colonial]

3 hours ago, kbbpll said:

My point was to illustrate a handful of examples. There are varieties all over Canadian coinage and people do collect them. Their dollar collections are not complete without at least both the 1947 pointed and blunt 7. 1926 5c near and far 6. Etc etc. Price differences across the board indicate desire for nearly all varieties. I was merely countering your assertion that "There is no never going to be any significant variety or error collecting of world coinage" but I don't want to argue about it. 

I'm not trying to argue your point because your examples don't contradict what I stated.  I never implied that there is no noticeable collecting of individual varieties.  It was directed toward a prior post where I (maybe incorrectly) interpreted it more broadly.

[RWB]

RE: "....collect some varieties in my world Series"

Well, you might find more interest in that in the baseball card or autograph sections This year's Series is likely to be a dud -- so far most of the games have seemed more like exhibitions or intrasquad matches.

[Henri Charriere]

8 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I have expressed the sentiments in the quote you extracted from my post many times but it's not to knock anyone's collecting.  It's just a fact and an evident explanation for common current (US) collecting behavior.

Decades ago when most US collecting was out of circulation, there was almost no specialization in these series and my explanation for it is that the sets were a lot more difficult to complete since most weren't paying any premiums.  Now with improved communication mostly due to the internet, collectors need to find a new challenge.  This is my explanation for the increased US preference for full strikes (such as FS and FB), toning, errors, die varieties and registry competition.  A coin or series which can be bought (essentially) on demand or short notice (in practically any quality) can be made as easy or difficult as the collector chooses based upon the application of this narrow criteria.

(To paraphrase one of the Duke brothers in "Trading Places," (1983?):  Well done, World Colonial. Very Well Done!)

 

8 hours ago, World Colonial said:

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Duplication