Conrad57 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) I understand, even though I'm kinda new to serious collecting, that coin grading is subjective. I was looking on ebay for a 1921 Peace Dollar. I ran across this coin (pictured), and I am wondering how this is an MS 65+. I just had a few Peace dollars graded and my 1928 came back graded as a AU 55 with far more detail than this 1921 MS-65+? My coin reference for the subject coin is 5895487-001. I'm not upset, but I am very curious. Thanks for your input; Frank Edited July 3, 2020 by Conrad57 Add photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1917 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, Conrad57 said: I understand, even though I'm kinda new to serious collecting, that coin grading is subjective. I was looking on ebay for a 1921 Peace Dollar. I ran across this coin (pictured), and I am wondering how this is an MS 65+. I just had a few Peace dollars graded and my 1928 came back graded as a AU 55 with far more detail than this 1921 MS-65+? My coin reference for the subject coin is 5895487-001. I'm not upset, but I am very curious. Thanks for your input; Frank the image is rather small, so when I blow it up, it looks blurry; could you provide a bigger image? perhaps post it in an individual post in this thread... secondly, yes, grading is subjective. That's why you can "challenge" the grade of slabbed coins by resubmitting them for review. Check out NGC's various tiers; there is an option for seeing if the grade is to high, and if it is too low. I don't know how often they actually change the grade, but obviously it can happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1917 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 also, one thing to remember is while a coin may have wear, and thus be an AU, it can have better eye appeal than MS coins at times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad57 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) Eye appeal? Doesn't have any eye appeal.....well, to me. And the guy wants $2450 for it. Edited July 3, 2020 by Conrad57 add text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie15 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 WHOOSH! I would not pay 65 money for it. It is extremely poorly struck at best and I do not like the tarnish. I do not collect these and am not an expert on holders. With that said I would ask someone with more knowledge to look at it to make sure it is authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbbpll Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 It's authentic - the same coin is in cert lookup images. I can't grade heavily toned coins from images and I imagine it's difficult even in-hand. My understanding is that toning/tarnish, no matter how ugly it is, doesn't, or shouldn't, affect the technical grade. Yours may have a better strike and eye appeal (subjective), but it's clearly AU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSquared Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I agree that it can be VERY subjective, which is why I say "eye-appeal" first. Sorta like, "buy the steak, not the sizzle"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad57 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 kbbpll "It's authentic - the same coin is in cert lookup images. I can't grade heavily toned coins from images and I imagine it's difficult even in-hand. My understanding is that toning/tarnish, no matter how ugly it is, doesn't, or shouldn't, affect the technical grade. Yours may have a better strike and eye appeal (subjective), but it's clearly AU." I did look it up, so I see the NGC grade. My question is, Why, would a coin with so much obvious wear be graded MS 65+? I could care less about tarnish etc.... I've seen much worse tarishing and the coin grade is fine, but this one here boggles the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 If the supposed 65+ were a weak strike, the rims would also not have struck up. I have lightly worn Peaces with no rims, just slight bevels between the milling and surface; terrible strikes were common in certain issues. Put bluntly, I think that 65+ grade is *spoon*ed up. That doesn't look like strike weakness to me around her earlocks; that looks like wear. I'd probably call that an F-VF obverse and I certainly wouldn't pay better than F money for it. And that's giving zero consideration to the tarnish, except to note that: if it's uncirculated, how come the tarnish remains stronger in some of the protected areas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modwriter Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 The AU55 may have been cleaned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad57 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 Thanks Modwriter, I have others that I have sent in, NGC will always mention it on the graded label if they've been cleaned. Modwriter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) There is no way for us to even begin to form an opinion on whether the coin is an AU or MS, without seeing a picture of the reverse. Also, keep in mind that 1921 Peace dollars are famous for having very weak strikes. Edited July 3, 2020 by Just Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad57 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, Just Bob said: There is no way for us to even begin to form an opinion on whether the coin is an AU or MS, without seeing a picture of the reverse. Also, keep in mind that 1921 Peace dollars are famous for having very weak strikes. Here ya go Bob, I thought this would be very obvious with the obverse picture. The 65+ you can see it clearly has no hair line detail! Wear on the reverse as well. When I think 65+ along with the established protocol for this grade on the older coins, I'm thinking this should have far more detail all around. To me it's obvious, apparently to others, not so much. Not my coin, not my problem, having said that, I still believe it be a really BAD example of a 65+ coin, I agree with JKK on his observation of V to VF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogohatesme Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I have no real input as for the grade. I just wanted to say that after seeing this, I have a I believe 1900 that looks way better than that MS65+ ( In my humble opinion) so it makes me want to send mine in ( insert sarcasm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1917 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 On 7/3/2020 at 10:54 AM, Conrad57 said: Eye appeal? Doesn't have any eye appeal.....well, to me. And the guy wants $2450 for it. that's because it's a 1921 high relief... pretty rare coin in the Peace Dollar series... anyhow I'm out of ideas for why it's such a high grade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 Each of these Peace dollars is graded MS65 or MS66. All show flatness and extreme lack of detail on the highest points, which looks very much like wear. It is true that the OP's coin shows very little detail in the hair, but I believe it is merely an example of an especially weak strike, and is technically uncirculated. Just my, opinion, of course. Crawtomatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 I get that the flatness can be attributable to strike weakness. It's right at the center of the design. What I don't get is how there are even rims if the strike is that weak. I've seen rimless Peaces that had fuller central device detail than these. I realize it's just possible that professional graders who do this every day might know more than I do, but really I'm just seeking to understand: how do we even get a rim with that much central device detail missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 7/3/2020 at 12:25 PM, Conrad57 said: My question is, Why, would a coin with so much obvious wear be graded MS 65+? Because there is no obvious wear. The lask of detail is because the central portions didn't strike up. You are making the mistake of comparing a low relief coin (the 28) with a high relief coin. And the detail loss isn't really the result of a weak strike On 7/3/2020 at 1:03 PM, JKK said: If the supposed 65+ were a weak strike, the rims would also not have struck up. The strike is fine, the problem is in the design itself. The relief was just too high to be struck up with the standard pressure for dollar coins. Coins struck with even higher pressure fill better, but caused damage to the presses and greatly shortened die life. Crawtomatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 The beginning of the MS65+ grade on the referenced coin begins with an almost complete lack of contact marks, unlike the AU55 example. When you see a coin virtually without contact marks, but WITH what looks like wear, you're not really seeing wear, but a weak strike. Crawtomatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_OldeTowne Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 7/3/2020 at 10:54 AM, Conrad57 said: Eye appeal? Doesn't have any eye appeal.....well, to me. And the guy wants $2450 for it. On 7/3/2020 at 10:54 AM, Conrad57 said: That appears to me to be an extremely attractive '21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, James_OldeTowne said: That appears to me to be an extremely attractive '21. Yes, to some, that kind of toning is "eye appeal". But not to me. I dislike that kind of toning because I know how to produce it artificially. It's not that difficult. Hence, why pay for what I can make if I cared to? I won't, therefore I will never own a coin like this one. "Eye appeal" gets into a coin's numeric grade, but it is subjective. I refuse to pay extra for that which I do not like. No one can force your eye to have appeal for an attribute. I do admire the bejabbers out of the coin for its lack of contact marks. Edited July 6, 2020 by VKurtB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilLOminatus Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 For eye appeal NGC uses the star designation, the + is for something that is above xx grade but doesn't make it to the xx+1 grade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 5 hours ago, ilLOminatus said: For eye appeal NGC uses the star designation, the + is for something that is above xx grade but doesn't make it to the xx+1 grade Not just the star. It gets solidly into all the MS numeric grades, as well. Crawtomatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
