Information wanted on 1900-O/CC silver dollars
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12 posts in this topic

For over a decade I've been collecting information (and data) about the 1900-O/CC silver dollars. (Those who want details of the varieties can go to VAMworld and search the date/mint listings.) As one might expect, speculation is great and data is scarce.

If members have any thoughts (ignoring Breen's falsehoods), I'd like to hear them - including collector speculation.

Thank You!

Edited by RWB
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I've speculated (on here somewhere?) that it was an 1899 reverse die returned to Philly and "reserved for future use", then repurposed with a different MM and shipped back out. I have nothing to back that up and have never seriously looked at Morgans. But you asked for speculation...

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1 hour ago, Nouzillet said:

Roger is it possible that an employee from the Carson City office went to work for the New Orleans Mint and brought with him some reverse CC silver dollar dies? 

Mintmarks were added to dies only at Philadelphia. Dies were carefully accounted for at all mints. Only the Coiner and Coining Room Foreman handled them.

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Speculation with nothing to back it up but:

Once the CC mint closed down in 1893 the equipment was painted and conditioned to prevent its deterioration, but remained at the mint. This I believe is known.  It may be possible that some rev dies were retained just in case the mint were to be reopened as a coining facility as had happened in 1890.  Once the mint reopened for receiving gold and silver, and then was downgraded to just an assay office iin June of 1899 it was realized that it would not be a coiing facility again and the dies were forwarded to Philadelphia.  But why the Philadelphia mint would go tot he trouble of reannealing the dies, punching in the O mintmark and them rehardening them when they had plenty of soft unmintmarked reverses on hand they could just punch with a mintmark.

I'm not sure, but I believe sometimes Philadelphia shipped out the branch mint dies in an unhardened state so that if they were lost or stolen they could not be used.  It was then the responsibility of the receiving mint to harden them.  If they did that with Carson City, the returned dies may not have been already hardened.  If not then it would have been a simple matter to punch the new mintmark and ship them out.

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16 hours ago, kbbpll said:

What were "Breen's falsehoods"?

Walter Breen (possibly known as "Uncle Wally" to the little boys he raped) regularly invented actions, events and "information" in his publications - particularly the latter ones. For example, the story of CC dies being sent back to Philadelphia in 1899 has no supporting evidence at all. Real data and contemporary operating procedures all speak against such an event. However, such was Breen's reputation that many other writers simply accepted his lies and continued to present them as facts. Similar situations involving many US coins and Colonials has so confused things that it is difficult to trust anything that Breen published from the First Coinvesters' period forward. The slow work of examining, evaluating and correcting is uncoordinated and poorly reported.

He also invented names for things that already were identified, partly to satisfy his own ego and partly to cover his poor research. Glaring examples include "Roman" proof gold for the existing "satin" proof, and "Matte proof" for the accepted "sandblast proof."

[If the above sounds angry or frustrated, it's because whenever I research something on which Breen has a published article, I commonly have to take extra time to lay out the facts to both show what really happened and separately treat Breen's accumulated sewage.]

Edited by RWB
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Thanks Roger, I've never read anything written by Breen and didn't realize I might have been repeating his "story" on the O/CC. As you know from private exchanges, I've been trying to figure out where reverse dime dies may have come from for SF to have created transition anomalies 1902-1905, and one of my thoughts was 1900 or 1901 Philly dies "reserved for future use" rebranded with S. So I applied that speculation to the O/CC. It sounds like it's a dumb idea. It would have to be 1893-CC  or earlier anyway. 

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Unlike medicine, where injecting Lysol into your body is "really dumb" and will kill you, numismatic ideas might be implausible but not "dumb."

[PS: I plan to complete the 1900 correspondence scanning as soon as NARA reopens.]

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not sure if you are aware of this from the Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars..." Five CC reverse dies left over from the Carson City mint when it was closed in 1893 were modified in 1900 by punching the O mint mark over the CC mint mark"

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4 hours ago, JoeF said:

not sure if you are aware of this from the Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars..." Five CC reverse dies left over from the Carson City mint when it was closed in 1893 were modified in 1900 by punching the O mint mark over the CC mint mark"

Thanks! I was aware of the comment.

Another way of phrasing the quote is: "A minimum of five CC reverse dies left over from the Carson City mint when it was closed in 1893, were modified by punching an O mint mark over the CC mintmark. This accounts for the five known O/CC mintmark varieties; others might exist."

This removes speculation about when the over mintmark was made, and leaves the maximum quantity open ended.

Edited by RWB
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6 hours ago, RWB said:

Thanks! I was aware of the comment.

Another way of phrasing the quote is: "A minimum of five CC reverse dies left over from the Carson City mint when it was closed in 1893, were modified by punching an O mint mark over the CC mintmark. This accounts for the five known O/CC mintmark varieties; others might exist."

This removes speculation about when the over mintmark was made, and leaves the maximum quantity open ended.

Although I know you know this already, for the benefit of future readers, I will add:

Vamworld lists six. Bowers says at least seven.

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