1903 Indian Head Cent does it look like it can grade as GOOD or VG? 0

[Marquez-Collector]

@VKurtB

This is the cent that my son found in the back seat of my Ford Ranger, (I Picked up the Ranger Used) and taking a closer look I was way wrong. Not an AU at all.  maybe a VG at best or just GOOD.

 

[JKK]

G, cleaned.

[Marquez-Collector]

23 hours ago, JKK said:

G, cleaned.

Cleaned? What makes you say it was cleaned? remember this was in the back seat of a pick up and the breasions could be by it being kicked around. or is it the color? Just curious, it has been beat to hell.  

[JKK]

The color. Doesn't mean that it was deliberately cleaned, just that it has the look of a cleaned coin and would be viewed as such. It looks like it once colored up to the natural hue, then somehow had that natural patina removed. How it happened, I can't say.

[Kirt]

14 hours ago, JKK said:

The color. Doesn't mean that it was deliberately cleaned, just that it has the look of a cleaned coin and would be viewed as such. It looks like it once colored up to the natural hue, then somehow had that natural patina removed. How it happened, I can't say.

JKK, do you mind elaborating a bit? Cleaning (apart from the really obvious stuff) is an area where I'm still trying to learn. I'm seeing the chocolate brown patina kinda mottled on the details and fields, concentrated toward the edges. I think I'm getting thrown off by the overall mottling of the lighter tone plus the shield details being light and just want to be sure I'm understanding, as I was looking for dark details, light fields.

@Dukemnm, thanks for sharing - cool coin regardless, interesting to speculate how it came to be in the back seat!!

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Kirt

[JKK]

I don't see any patina that looks natural to me (taking the photo coloration at face value). I see a well worn but not much damaged IHP that is bright in some of the wrong places, and where even the patina looks like what you'd get if you whizzed the coin and then parts of it had opportunity to tone up more than others. If you'd like a study portion to examine, take a look at the shield on the reverse. Half of it is that unnatural darkened color, half is brightened on high points and low. I struggle with figuring out a natural way it could get that way.

I can't say for absolute certain what happened to the coin, but it doesn't look naturally aged. Anything worn that flat should typically be a nice deep chocolate brown all over, because to wear that flat, it had to see a lot of circulation. One thing I find helpful is to try and imagine a legit way the coin could get to the state in which we see it. How would a copper coin get worn down that much, yet preserve original copper brightness? Stretches credibility. But if it were at least once cleaned, then fell behind a seat and was partly in contact with something like an old paper towel or what have you, maybe that happened. I just don't see a legit wear scenario. If anyone can imagine one, by all means propose it. Maybe I've whiffed on something.

[Kirt]

Thanks JKK - very helpful. All my Indian Heads in that wear range are solid chocolate brown - I see exactly what you're saying, now.

Still like the coin, though!

[Marquez-Collector]

13 hours ago, JKK said:

Maybe I've whiffed on something.

you've been smoking  Just Joking. 

This picture does no justice at all. i'll take another picture with a better camera. However, I understand what you are saying and always appreciate your insight.  

17 hours ago, Kirt said:

interesting to speculate how it came to be in the back seat!!

 

So, I got the truck from a guy that works construction, like mansory truck is beat to hell but the engine is in really good condition with only less than 150K. so you can imagine laborers climbing in and out of the truck. one of them must have dropped some loose change, the Cent was underneath the weather mat there was broken rear window and there was some water damage so Imagine the penny in the back under a mat getting dragged around as people or tools get tossed in the back. I was surprised that it wasn't all green like the others he found back there. 

To @JKK 's point, that would account for the whizzed and cleaned looking wear. In a sense, it was cleaned by natural events like when a rocks smooths out in a river.  

I it is my sons coin, and he loves it, now i can explain all this to him, not that he will understand much because he is only 7 but good learning opportunity. 

Thank you all. 

 

[JKK]

2 minutes ago, Dukemnm said:

To @JKK 's point, that would account for the whizzed and cleaned looking wear. In a sense, it was cleaned by natural events like when a rocks smooths out in a river.  

 

I don't think that's how the wear and cleaning came about.

[Marquez-Collector]

44 minutes ago, JKK said:

I don't think that's how the wear and cleaning came about.

Really? ok so maybe it was like you said, cleaned and ended up in my truck and then my son found it? 

I can live with that   Thanks JKK.

[JKK]

2 minutes ago, Dukemnm said:

Really? ok so maybe it was like you said, cleaned and ended up in my truck and then my son found it? 

I can live with that   Thanks JKK.

Never mind. I am not communicating effectively.

Edited January 6, 2020 by JKK

[Marquez-Collector]

20 minutes ago, JKK said:

Never mind. I am not communicating effectively.

you are, I think, it is just my stubbornness  trying to justify things,looking for answers as to why things happen.  

Bottom line, you assessment of G, cleaned is good enough for me. After all, that is my initial question and I see why such evaluation. 

thank you. 

[JKK]

The observable evidence, as always taking the images for gospel (color can sometimes photograph oddly):

• It's worn down to G. No chance of VG; too good for AG.
• It has light scratches that might not be easily spotted in hand (images are blown up, of course).
• The light parts don't look natural. They look like what you get with a bad cleaning.
• The darkened parts don't look natural. They look like what you get when you try artificially retoning a bad cleaning, or when it is perhaps exposed to some influence (could be a liquid, could be old paper, could be deteriorating plastic, could be who knows what).

Does that mean it was cleaned? Not necessarily. Does all that fully explain what happened to it? Not that I am aware, but I'm not an expert. Is it a great find, an IHP in an old truck? Boy howdy it is. Does it give people a good example of what unnatural bronze cents look like? In my view, yes.

[Marquez-Collector]

1 hour ago, JKK said:

The observable evidence, as always taking the images for gospel (color can sometimes photograph oddly):

• It's worn down to G. No chance of VG; too good for AG.
• It has light scratches that might not be easily spotted in hand (images are blown up, of course).
• The light parts don't look natural. They look like what you get with a bad cleaning.
• The darkened parts don't look natural. They look like what you get when you try artificially retoning a bad cleaning, or when it is perhaps exposed to some influence (could be a liquid, could be old paper, could be deteriorating plastic, could be who knows what).

Does that mean it was cleaned? Not necessarily. Does all that fully explain what happened to it? Not that I am aware, but I'm not an expert. Is it a great find, an IHP in an old truck? Boy howdy it is. Does it give people a good example of what unnatural bronze cents look like? In my view, yes.

Thank you for taking the time for such detail explanation. Very Educational. Thanks again.

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Dukemnm
Typo.

[Speaks]

People that aren’t into this hobby most people don’t know that cleaning a coin takes away from its value so they find a coin or someone gives them one and they want to run to the sink and grab whatever they can to clean it up and maybe read it. Like steel wool.

 

 

”Whats a yout”