Ike Dollar question 0

[Edward Plato]

Ok, really puzzled by all my Google searches, hopefully I can get some help here. I have a 1972 s Ike Dollar which I believe is type 2, it is silver, looks to me to be quite valuable but I can find no confirmation that it truly is a type 2; thanks for the help !

[JKK]

I'm no expert on Ikes, but it would surprise me very much if that coin merited PR-65, let alone PR-70. I've never heard of that grading service, and I can't tell what might be smudges or scratches on the holder vs. the piece itself, but you might want to scale down your value estimations until a real grading service slabs it.

[Just Bob]

There were three reverse varieties for the 1972 Ike dollars, and the type two is the most scarce of the three, but they were on Mint State (business strike) coins. Your coin is a Proof, which was struck specially for collectors. The reverse on your coin appears normal for the year.

[Edward Plato]

Thanks so much for your input, I have researched the different types and am still confused because what I have pictured sure looks like a type 2 to me, which shouldn't be, that should only be on the business strikes....I think.

As far as the grade goes, I can't wait till it becomes fully automated, taking the subjective views and the favoritism out of the equation. It almost seems like the stock market in the early days until the SEC stepped in and stopped the games..to a point. Seems strange to me that Ebay only recognizes 4 grading companies and yet I know of at least one that dealers automatically downgrade as soon as they see their name. Just look at how much money is lost when a coin comes back as a 69 instead of a 70.....fresh from the mint, unopened, untouched. Then there's the fact that some companies are no longer in the business of grading, they would rather sell labels. There's so much more that  goes on, just makes my blood pressure go up. That being said, thanks again for your assistance with this coin and helping me decipher exactly what it is. This all goes back to buyin the coin for the coin, not the grade.

[Just Bob]

36 minutes ago, Edward Plato said:

Thanks so much for your input, I have researched the different types and am still confused because what I have pictured sure looks like a type 2 to me, which shouldn't be, that should only be on the business strikes....I think.

 

Yours is a type two, but it is supposed to be. The type two reverse is the normal proof reverse for that year. It was used unintentionally on some business strikes, creating the scarce variety that is a key to the series.

 

Here is a link to an article by our hosts on the subject, which explains the differences in the reverse designs, and shows pictures of each:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/812/1972-Eisenhower-Ike-Dollar-Types/

Edited November 17, 2019 by Just Bob

[JKK]

Do you envision a time when full automation of grading becomes practical? I'm not a big fan of the current situation either, but I have a difficult time imagining the automation scenario performing better than what we have.

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:12 AM, JKK said:

Do you envision a time when full automation of grading becomes practical? I'm not a big fan of the current situation either, but I have a difficult time imagining the automation scenario performing better than what we have.

The technology to do it exists now. All that is lacking is the will to do it.

[Edward Plato]

I believe coin grading becoming automated is mandatory for this hobby to flourish. A good analogy is the metal working industry. In order to maintain consistent results automation was created. This has progressed over the years, now you have robots making robots. I could envision a CMM (coordinate measuring system) set up and programmed to handle the chore. The tedious part would be programming all of the parameters needed. Think about it, the original prints to all coins are stashed away in some mint, using that data can determine wear and compliance. With an extension of photograde could be eye appeal. The big issue, as with everything, is costs. Initially it would be tough but with volume costs will decrease. There have been coins I sent out and they came back a 64, might as well stick them in the trash, useless to me. Maybe it was a Monday, or a Friday, maybe they were having a bad day, who knows. With never an explanation supplied with the service all I can do is resubmit. The US mint has gone to great efforts to encourage new coin enthusiasts, in particular the younger generations. Let's make it better for them!!

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Edward Plato said:

I believe coin grading becoming automated is mandatory for this hobby to flourish. A good analogy is the metal working industry. In order to maintain consistent results automation was created. This has progressed over the years, now you have robots making robots. I could envision a CMM (coordinate measuring system) set up and programmed to handle the chore. The tedious part would be programming all of the parameters needed. Think about it, the original prints to all coins are stashed away in some mint, using that data can determine wear and compliance. With an extension of photograde could be eye appeal. The big issue, as with everything, is costs. Initially it would be tough but with volume costs will decrease. There have been coins I sent out and they came back a 64, might as well stick them in the trash, useless to me. Maybe it was a Monday, or a Friday, maybe they were having a bad day, who knows. With never an explanation supplied with the service all I can do is resubmit. The US mint has gone to great efforts to encourage new coin enthusiasts, in particular the younger generations. Let's make it better for them!!

You would think so, but this hobby loves to deify its "experts". It really is a hobby that reeks of a "cult of personalities". If the right expert or two suggests that everything we've been doing for decades is wrong (like valuing blast white coins), the hobby follows them over the cliff lemming-like. Seeing the prices paid for some toned modern golden dollar coins makes me both laugh and want to cry.

Edited November 18, 2019 by VKurtB

[Crawtomatic]

I'm glad you're around @VKurtB.  Others too, of course.  But you often offer the dissenting point of view and it saves me the time of writing similar observations.  Much easier to just hop around dropping hearts on your posts.

[JKK]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The technology to do it exists now. All that is lacking is the will to do it.

That technology has the ability to discern cleaning, and to tell strike weakness from high point wear?

[Just Bob]

3 hours ago, Edward Plato said:

Think about it, the original prints to all coins are stashed away in some mint...

One would think (and hope) that this would be the case,  but, in fact, many mint records have been destroyed over the years, and many original drawings, models, galvananos, master hubs and dies, etc. are gone forever.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, JKK said:

That technology has the ability to discern cleaning, and to tell strike weakness from high point wear?

To the extent we, as humans, do, so can it, if we have the will to digitally "explain" the differences. How do you tell which is which? Then add in that coin grading by technology can involve three-dimensional scanning.

Edited November 18, 2019 by VKurtB

[kbbpll]

Didn't one of the TPGs experiment with AI grading a few years ago? I recall seeing it brought up in a forum thread somewhere.

Hal would see proof type 2 on the OP coin and proceed to assigning a technical grade, nothing special. It's interesting for me to contemplate what happens when Hal encounters an anomaly. I submit my 1899-P dime with a 1900 reverse. Hal gives it a "not genuine". Same with RPMs, RPDs, DDOs, etc. Die clashes. Off center strikes. Rotation. Planchet flaws. You name it. I suppose all that would get kicked out to a human grader in the early stages.

[Edward Plato]

Looks like a very controversial subject I brought up here, and believe me I don't know if automation is the answer, but something has to be done, I think the hobby is spiraling out of control thanks to our current grading systems. I will give you a perfect example, I am getting ready to send out my new 2019 S SAE, luckily I did get one. Number 1, I haven't seen it because the graders insist on a sealed box from the mint; fine, I'll deal with it, now the costs:

Grading fee, $22.00

First Strike Label, $18.00

Serialized COA, $15.00

Handling Fee, $10.00

Shipping Fee, $10.00

All this and 9 times out of 10 they keep the original mint packaging so they can sell those to dealers.

OK, so all the grading fees add up to $75.00

With tax and shipping the coin cost me $70.00 from the mint........REALLY????

If the coin comes back a 70 I'll be pleased I guess, anything less and I lost.

[VKurtB]

4 hours ago, Edward Plato said:

Looks like a very controversial subject I brought up here, and believe me I don't know if automation is the answer, but something has to be done, I think the hobby is spiraling out of control thanks to our current grading systems. I will give you a perfect example, I am getting ready to send out my new 2019 S SAE, luckily I did get one. Number 1, I haven't seen it because the graders insist on a sealed box from the mint; fine, I'll deal with it, now the costs:

Grading fee, $22.00

First Strike Label, $18.00

Serialized COA, $15.00

Handling Fee, $10.00

Shipping Fee, $10.00

All this and 9 times out of 10 they keep the original mint packaging so they can sell those to dealers.

OK, so all the grading fees add up to $75.00

With tax and shipping the coin cost me $70.00 from the mint........REALLY????

If the coin comes back a 70 I'll be pleased I guess, anything less and I lost.

...if you "hit it and quit it". There is a high likelihood that even if it's a PF70, if you keep it a year, you'll still lose money. The natural progression is for all overhyped coins to fall back to reality, slowly but surely. Doubt that? Check the price history of the Truman and Eisenhower Coin & Chronicles Sets, and to a lesser extent, the Kennedy and Johnson. All 4 are the only way to get the Reverse Proof versions of those coins. The price over time curves are classics. This one will do it too.

[Crawtomatic]

Agreed @VKurtB.  It's interesting how closely the collectibles market matches up to technology when it comes to early adoption pricing. 

Anybody recall a few years back when Stephen Strasburg's rookie cards were going for insane amounts of money?  One sold in excess of $40k and I doubt it would get close to that number these days.  Granted, it's a 1/1 in a red border but <yawn>

https://www.aol.com/2010/07/20/stephen-strasburg-rookie-card-auction-bad-investment/

[VKurtB]

As to the OP's original question, please be careful not to "transfer" thinking of varieties of one coin date and mintmark to another of the same year. They often are not the same, and this is a key example. All the Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3 stuff is about one coin - the 1972 Philly circulation version. No Denver, no San Francisco, no other year. 

 

Now there is another variety gaining traction - the 1971-D circulation Ike with a "Friendly Eagle" reverse. I call it the "Happy Ending Eagle" just to ruffle people's, umm, feathers. 

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

On 11/18/2019 at 2:32 PM, Just Bob said:

One would think (and hope) that this would be the case,  but, in fact, many mint records have been destroyed over the years, and many original drawings, models, galvananos, master hubs and dies, etc. are gone forever.

I thought they stopped the destruction when it was brought to light that the artists at the mint were having their coin drawings taken after submitting their work....people within the Treasury or Mint figured the work would be valuable by the artists so it spread to everything else? 

Wasn't a Coinage Advisory Committee member responsible for getting these saved....

It all started when Bowers and them located the 1964 Dollar Stuff....

Unless it changed again or I'm getting too old!!!

[Conder101]

16 hours ago, Edward Plato said:

Grading fee, $22.00

First Strike Label, $18.00

Serialized COA, $15.00

Handling Fee, $10.00

Shipping Fee, $10.00

Your shipping fee is too low unless you are submitting multiple items and prorating it, and I don't think you have included the shipping/insurance to send it to them.

[Edward Plato]

This is great, thank you all for the most valuable info. Based on what I posted if the aristocrats are listening I will never be able to get a decent grade on my coins......whatever, I love my coins, and my hobby.

 

[VKurtB]

11 hours ago, Edward Plato said:

This is great, thank you all for the most valuable info. Based on what I posted if the aristocrats are listening I will never be able to get a decent grade on my coins......whatever, I love my coins, and my hobby.

 

Try not to get all your self-esteem wrapped up in what three potential coke-snorters (both top TPGS firms are in narco country, jus' sayin') think about whether your coin is a 69 or a 70. Let other plastic obsessives live like that.

 

I mean, seriously. All I get to choose from is the Florida Gulf Coast or Southern California??? Why?? Maybe I'll direct submit to NGC London.

Edited November 20, 2019 by VKurtB