35 posts in this topic

8 posts
6 minutes ago, JKK said:

What's the reasoning behind thinking it's gold? Looks to me like a brass token, just from the pictures.

Beacuse I spectate this coin from a goldsmith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,755 posts
18 minutes ago, Sachin singh said:

Beacuse I spectate this coin from a goldsmith.

Well, here's my reasoning for thinking it's not gold or old:

  1. It looks like brass.
  2. It does not look like any of the known styles of coinage from the 1777 era, at least that I have ever seen.
  3. A lot of brass jetons were struck in the 1800s with dates well before, referring to past figures and events.

There's a way to get some idea. If you will provide weight, diameter, and thickness, we can compare those to the standard weights of known gold coins similarly sized. Gold's heavy, of course, much heavier than brass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 posts
On 8/26/2019 at 9:56 AM, JKK said:

What's the reasoning behind thinking it's gold? Looks to me like a brass token, just from the pictures.

Its circular length is 1.70 cm and its weight is 1.410 milligram...now 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,755 posts
8 hours ago, Sachin singh said:

Its circular length is 1.70 cm and its weight is 1.410 milligram...now 

I think the term you want is 'diameter' for the 17mm. Don't worry; I realize that specialized vocabulary in any second language is difficult. I mention it because at first I thought you meant the circumference (distance around), and I did some mental math before deciding that couldn't be right. I think also that you mean a weight of 1.41 grams, not milligrams.

Thickness varies, of course, but I went looking for historic gold coins of about the right diameter. In an example from US coinage, I found a near one: the first $1 gold piece, KM#73. 1.67g, 13mm in diameter, 90% Au. They're tiny dinky little things. With that as a reference, for yours to be gold--unless it was somehow much thinner than a KM#73--either the weight would have to come up, or the diameter would have to come down.

I do not know what it was for; I have never seen one like it in any world coin catalogue. I do not believe it is gold, nor that it was minted in 1777. I think it's a brass token, probably a jeton from the 1800s. Why someone made one that small, I don't know, but no one with any sense will pay you a precious metal price for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,152 posts

Clear photos are not going to make any difference. It is NOT a coin and it is NOT made of gold.  It is some sort of token or possibly even a game piece that has little value. If you are having trouble believing this, take it into any jeweller and have it appraised.

Edited by Greenstang
Correct typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 posts

Brother we are coin collectors but don't have knowledge how to sell these coins.few year ago my uncle made a deal of selling some coins but the fooled them they took the coin by giving them little amount and the dealers sold that coin at a valuable high price when he listened this he was totally broken. From that day , he now believe me because i have some knowledge of Internet . Uncle have thousand of rare coins,gold plates of king George era,and many more things. He was collecting coins from 25 years and solds some of them but they had been fooled . If anyone interested then i will show some rare things. And last ,the coin you all saying it is bronze or a game play coin . No it is not . If you have knowledge about coins then find what kind of coin it is ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,303 posts
On 11/9/2019 at 2:40 AM, Sachin singh said:

And last ,the coin you all saying it is bronze or a game play coin . No it is not . If you have knowledge about coins then find what kind of coin it is ???

That is the problem. It is not a coin, so it is not listed in any of the common references.

Compare your piece to other gold coins. Yours does not have an issuing government, or denomination, or name of the person being pictured, or any other feature normally found on a legitimate coin, aside from a date which may or may  not be the actual date of issue, (and, my money is on it not being the actual date.)

If you really believe it is gold, take it to a jewelry store and have it tested. Heck, take it to four or five jewelry stores. Get all of them to test it

 If it is gold, sell it. If it is not, then use it to level your refrigerator or stop your table from wobbling.

Edited by Just Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
286 posts

Zooming in on the reverse it almost looks like the design was soldered on there. What an odd looking thing, whatever it is.

Boat.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
62 posts
On 11/10/2019 at 1:02 AM, kbbpll said:

Zooming in on the reverse it almost looks like the design was soldered on there. What an odd looking thing, whatever it is.

Boat.jpg

The darn thing had me interested enough to do some snooping about. I don't know what you have there but if it was mine, I'd keep digging. It probably has little value but the joy of figuring out the puzzle is always rewarding!

Three possibilities for OP to consider:

1) The design, particularly the reverse, has some similarities with brass jetons as someone had mentioned; however those issued in Germany (Nuremburg) have the most similarities so maybe start there. The strikes are poor and have misshapen bits of metal similar to what shows on the mast in the image (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces156635.html) which leads one to think of soldering the design. The focus on cannon on the hull is likewise similar. However, those tokens almost always portray the ship from the stern quarter, there is significantly more detail in the hull and rigging, they usually have a rim, and the portraits on the obverse are much more sophisticated. What may be a Templar/Order of Christ cross on the sail is likewise dissimilar as it would have been in use only in Portugal and Spain - and even then, much earlier than 1777.

2) There are tokens commemorating the landing of the Marquis De Lafayette in 1777; the example here was struck later in 1824 and is significantly more detailed but maybe this is a more contemporaneous example. However, the cross on the sail is again not fitting with the historical event.

3) James Cook landed on several islands in 1777, claiming them for the Crown. Again, medals and tokens were issued to commemorate the events; however, the cross on the sail is again not fitting with the rig on HMS Resolution. 

Edited by Kirt
Updated link

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
393 posts

@Sachin singh

Can you take a closer picture on the date and the reverse, bottom of the boat? 

The coin looks to be altered. probably a poor attempt by someone to re-enhance the design. I am curious to see what is underneed the altered details. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,755 posts
On 11/9/2019 at 12:40 AM, Sachin singh said:

If you have knowledge about coins then find what kind of coin it is ???

It's not a coin. Those who have knowledge about coins know what is not a coin.

If you pointed at a horse and said, "Tell me what kind of camel that is," and a camel expert said "That isn't a camel at all; it's a horse," would you say to him: "If you are a camel expert, surely you can tell me what kind of camel it is?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
62 posts
57 minutes ago, JKK said:

It's not a coin. Those who have knowledge about coins know what is not a coin.

If you pointed at a horse and said, "Tell me what kind of camel that is," and a camel expert said "That isn't a camel at all; it's a horse," would you say to him: "If you are a camel expert, surely you can tell me what kind of camel it is?"

So, I kept digging and found another horse:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/french-token-from-1777-please-help.20862/

Still not much help on what the thing is; I would be skeptical of the assertion that it is gold, or French, or even the source is the prop site the last poster stumbled across. It does provide better pictures of what appears to be a better quality, err...horse... and that may help in any further investigation. The combination of the caravel with the Templar cross, the Germanic stylistic touches on reverse, French stylistic touches on obverse, and the lack of anything major significant matching the 1777 date from either makes it very likely to be contemporary mash-up.

Only one thought - my earlier suggestion of continuing to go after tokens related to the Marquis de Lafayette may be your best bet; in all images of him he's portrayed with a very prominent nose. Ship + nose + French influence in 1777...who knows?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
393 posts
40 minutes ago, Kirt said:

So, I kept digging and found another horse:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/french-token-from-1777-please-help.20862/

Still not much help on what the thing is; I would be skeptical of the assertion that it is gold, or French, or even the source is the prop site the last poster stumbled across. It does provide better pictures of what appears to be a better quality, err...horse... and that may help in any further investigation. The combination of the caravel with the Templar cross, the Germanic stylistic touches on reverse, French stylistic touches on obverse, and the lack of anything major significant matching the 1777 date from either makes it very likely to be contemporary mash-up.

Only one thought - my earlier suggestion of continuing to go after tokens related to the Marquis de Lafayette may be your best bet; in all images of him he's portrayed with a very prominent nose. Ship + nose + French influence in 1777...who knows?

Even the token in that post looks re-manufactured. I don't even believe that the one on the post is gold, perhaps it is gold plated and the one here was at one point gold plated and lost its plating since the one in this post looks to be more circulated than the one on the Link. Hope this all makes sense. 

I can go back to see my old french coins, the color is consistent, and some have similar silhouettes, (Behind the added metal) but to find it, I would need close ups of the dates and the boat. Also the size and wight. 

I doubt that OP will follow up. perhaps he does not want to find out the truth out of fear and disappointment.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
690 posts

1) This OP's piece is not a coin. It is a token or medal.

2) This OP's piece is not gold.

3) This OP's piece is not worth a "valuable price".

In baseball, three strikes and you're out. Here too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
62 posts
5 hours ago, Dukemnm said:

Even the token in that post looks re-manufactured. I don't even believe that the one on the post is gold, perhaps it is gold plated and the one here was at one point gold plated and lost its plating since the one in this post looks to be more circulated than the one on the Link. Hope this all makes sense. 

I can go back to see my old french coins, the color is consistent, and some have similar silhouettes, (Behind the added metal) but to find it, I would need close ups of the dates and the boat. Also the size and wight. 

I doubt that OP will follow up. perhaps he does not want to find out the truth out of fear and disappointment.  

Agree with you on the composition although rather than gold plate I'd argue it was bronzed. Hell of a lot cheaper than gold plate.

I'm not sold on the re-manufactured. I'm still seeing just terrible design, which is common in lots of 18th century tokens. Combine it with poor strikes and lousy alloys and you get really...interesting...tokens. Of course I'm assuming that someone is trying to copy that style; you could argue that's a bit of a leap. Of the two, OP's looks more likely to have been fiddled with, particularly the obverse. Either that or whoever's bust that is took one hell of a blow to the nose and lips. 

Size and weight we have from both OP and the link:

Diameter 17mm (OP); 17mm (link, assuming the scale is correct on the image from CoinTalk)

Weight 1.41g (JKK's reasonable interpretation of OP's statement); 2g (link)

So it's spot on in terms of size and in a reasonable error range in weight, particularly after accounting for something so small and the significant difference in wear. I think trying to make it fit any actual coin is a fool's errand; it's clearly a token. The only question in my mind is what the hell for?

4 hours ago, VKurtB said:

1) This OP's piece is not a coin. It is a token or medal.

2) This OP's piece is not gold.

3) This OP's piece is not worth a "valuable price".

In baseball, three strikes and you're out. Here too.

I agree with everything you said except the last statement - this thing is a fun little puzzle, for me at least. Besides, I'm learning a bunch of new things with each dead end I explore. History is fantastic, even if it's the history of something I never saw, will never own, and will probably end up being the product of someone's imagination. But there are two of these little bastards out there, and that's enough to make the puzzle interesting - again, for me at least.

Completely agree with Dukemnm - OP quit when it wasn't "valuable"; shame as the value isn't in the token. It's in the knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
393 posts
On 11/13/2019 at 5:03 PM, Kirt said:

I'm not sold on the re-manufactured

@Kirt Yeah, I was doing some research and I do not see where it is re-manufactured. It fits patterns from that period. I will see a world book and see if I can find it. there is one that looks similar to that. I'll post a picture of the one I found, and I will look for the world Book. 

 

On 11/13/2019 at 5:28 PM, Frank 61 said:

This coin is the very rare Blowfink Dabloon from the Hooch Coochie Islands.

Are you for real? can you link or post any references? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,755 posts
58 minutes ago, Dukemnm said:

Are you for real? can you link or post any references? 

pssst...satire alert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,755 posts
Just now, Dukemnm said:

lol MC Brains reference? 

I'm not very knowledgeable about hip-hop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
690 posts
On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:21 PM, Dukemnm said:

That is the MC that sings the oocie Choochie Song, and I think he is from Coney Island. 

Too many popular culture references for my tastes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 posts
On 11/13/2019 at 8:27 PM, Kirt said:

The darn thing had me interested enough to do some snooping about. I don't know what you have there but if it was mine, I'd keep digging. It probably has little value but the joy of figuring out the puzzle is always rewarding!

Three possibilities for OP to consider:

1) The design, particularly the reverse, has some similarities with brass jetons as someone had mentioned; however those issued in Germany (Nuremburg) have the most similarities so maybe start there. The strikes are poor and have misshapen bits of metal similar to what shows on the mast in the image (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces156635.html) which leads one to think of soldering the design. The focus on cannon on the hull is likewise similar. However, those tokens almost always portray the ship from the stern quarter, there is significantly more detail in the hull and rigging, they usually have a rim, and the portraits on the obverse are much more sophisticated. What may be a Templar/Order of Christ cross on the sail is likewise dissimilar as it would have been in use only in Portugal and Spain - and even then, much earlier than 1777.

2) There are tokens commemorating the landing of the Marquis De Lafayette in 1777; the example here was struck later in 1824 and is significantly more detailed but maybe this is a more contemporaneous example. However, the cross on the sail is again not fitting with the historical event.

3) James Cook landed on several islands in 1777, claiming them for the Crown. Again, medals and tokens were issued to commemorate the events; however, the cross on the sail is again not fitting with the rig on HMS Resolution. 

Thanks for your suggestion and support

 

On 11/13/2019 at 10:36 PM, JKK said:

It's not a coin. Those who have knowledge about coins know what is not a coin.

If you pointed at a horse and said, "Tell me what kind of camel that is," and a camel expert said "That isn't a camel at all; it's a horse," would you say to him: "If you are a camel expert, surely you can tell me what kind of camel it is?"

Hey man, we came from a place named India, India gets freedom in 1947 . So a coin of 1777 that i inspect from a Goldsmith that it is a gold coin and you all people are saying that it is a game play coin or it is a bronze coin. What you people want that i should go and clean this coin and then it will shine like a gold coin. And the most interesting fact is that we never travels too much and this coin was here from starting and the Britishes came in 1700's and we never go to Britain. And India was a, is a cultural country not a game play coin country.

 

On 11/13/2019 at 8:42 PM, Dukemnm said:

@Sachin singh

Can you take a closer picture on the date and the reverse, bottom of the boat? 

The coin looks to be altered. probably a poor attempt by someone to re-enhance the design. I am curious to see what is underneed the altered details. 

 

Yes i will send it to you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 posts
On 11/14/2019 at 12:29 AM, Dukemnm said:

Even the token in that post looks re-manufactured. I don't even believe that the one on the post is gold, perhaps it is gold plated and the one here was at one point gold plated and lost its plating since the one in this post looks to be more circulated than the one on the Link. Hope this all makes sense. 

I can go back to see my old french coins, the color is consistent, and some have similar silhouettes, (Behind the added metal) but to find it, I would need close ups of the dates and the boat. Also the size and wight. 

I doubt that OP will follow up. perhaps he does not want to find out the truth out of fear and disappointment.  

Sending you some clear photos of the coin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
1 1