What would this be considered?
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Ok, I think I finally found an actual error. Daggonit y'all, please don't disappoint. Lol! Would this be a LAM or a MDB? It's has to be one or the other because it cannot possibly be routine damage. At the top of the head.

Do y'all have any advice as to how to tell a DD from a shadow if all you have is a 3 optical whatever magify lamp and a 10X magnifier? I think I see them better at an angle and cross-eyed.

0326182327.jpg

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I don't know what to say about the pictured penny, but as for double dies vs. mechanical doubling, here's what to know. A double die is a flaw that happens to the die itself. Every coin struck from that die will exhibit the doubling, as the problem occurred when the working die was made from the hub. As such, where prominent (mainly on letters and numbers), the second image will look like a version of the first (it will have the rounding you'd expect). With practice you can tell the direction the die must have shifted.

With mechanical doubling, what you see is little shelves--the shadows you mentioned. They do not look rounded. They look like the planchet slipped in place as the die was hitting it. The secondary images don't have rounding because they are not struck from the die itself, but from its mistake; they are not a die flaw and would not have occurred had dies and planchet all stayed where they were supposed to be. You can definitely see both with a 10x loupe.

Best way to see what a double die is supposed to look like is to find online pics of the famous 1955. Notice how the ghostly image presents a pretty good and clear version of the date. In mechanical doubling, there'd just be little shelves skirting the digits.

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7 minutes ago, JKK said:

I don't know what to say about the pictured penny, but as for double dies vs. mechanical doubling, here's what to know. A double die is a flaw that happens to the die itself. Every coin struck from that die will exhibit the doubling, as the problem occurred when the working die was made from the hub. As such, where prominent (mainly on letters and numbers), the second image will look like a version of the first (it will have the rounding you'd expect). With practice you can tell the direction the die must have shifted.

With mechanical doubling, what you see is little shelves--the shadows you mentioned. They do not look rounded. They look like the planchet slipped in place as the die was hitting it. The secondary images don't have rounding because they are not struck from the die itself, but from its mistake; they are not a die flaw and would not have occurred had dies and planchet all stayed where they were supposed to be. You can definitely see both with a 10x loupe.

Best way to see what a double die is supposed to look like is to find online pics of the famous 1955. Notice how the ghostly image presents a pretty good and clear version of the date. In mechanical doubling, there'd just be little shelves skirting the digits.

Well yeah. That 55 is totally obvious, although regular size it probably isn't. That's where I'm getting messed up. Like, could a person only see doubling one the sides or the top and bottom of a date? Or is it going to be noticeable all over? And how can only one thing be doubled? I'd think that if a date is double then everything on the Obv would also be doubled. Unless each part is stamped by different pieces of the die that are moveable? Is that how the die is made, in separate pieces put together? I would like to see a video of the entire process to set it in my head.

How come nothing about my penny?  When in hand it is definitely like a whole separate piece of material on Lincoln's head. Plus there are 2 gouges N to S that don't look like scratches.

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57 minutes ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Well yeah. That 55 is totally obvious, although regular size it probably isn't. That's where I'm getting messed up. Like, could a person only see doubling one the sides or the top and bottom of a date? Or is it going to be noticeable all over? And how can only one thing be doubled? I'd think that if a date is double then everything on the Obv would also be doubled. Unless each part is stamped by different pieces of the die that are moveable? Is that how the die is made, in separate pieces put together? I would like to see a video of the entire process to set it in my head.

How come nothing about my penny?  When in hand it is definitely like a whole separate piece of material on Lincoln's head. Plus there are 2 gouges N to S that don't look like scratches.

Because I don't know anything intelligent about the type of error you suspect in your penny. Anything I would say would be from a standpoint of ignorance. Far better service to you to wait until someone arrives who does know something.

I suspect that the evidence of the doubling depends on how the die creation error happened. I can recommend a book on this: the Cherrypickers' Guide, Volume I, by Fivaz and Stanton. The pertinent appendix, B, describes the minting process. The bonus here is that this volume covers the best known die varieties of US coins from half cents to Jeff nickels (Volume II goes to higher denominations). So if you're going to hunt errors, you want this even if you don't read the appendices (which you will surely wish to absorb). Another book is by one of the forum's own: The Art and Science of Grading Coins, by Jason Poe. I think it's one of the better books on the subject, but it goes into detail about the minting process and comes from a scientific standpoint that understands the metallurgy and physics in play. As an editor by trade, it pleases me when a self-published book turns out well.

If you read both those books, you will not only understand the coining process much better, you will find answers to the questions you didn't yet know to ask. Epic win.

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4 hours ago, JKK said:

Because I don't know anything intelligent about the type of error you suspect in your penny. Anything I would say would be from a standpoint of ignorance. Far better service to you to wait until someone arrives who does know something.

I suspect that the evidence of the doubling depends on how the die creation error happened. I can recommend a book on this: the Cherrypickers' Guide, Volume I, by Fivaz and Stanton. The pertinent appendix, B, describes the minting process. The bonus here is that this volume covers the best known die varieties of US coins from half cents to Jeff nickels (Volume II goes to higher denominations). So if you're going to hunt errors, you want this even if you don't read the appendices (which you will surely wish to absorb). Another book is by one of the forum's own: The Art and Science of Grading Coins, by Jason Poe. I think it's one of the better books on the subject, but it goes into detail about the minting process and comes from a scientific standpoint that understands the metallurgy and physics in play. As an editor by trade, it pleases me when a self-published book turns out well.

If you read both those books, you will not only understand the coining process much better, you will find answers to the questions you didn't yet know to ask. Epic win.

Thanks for the info JKK. Although I doubt you could sound likeanything close to ignorant. I keep seeing this CherryPickers Guide online, so I suppose I should look into it. Thanks for all your input. I have completed my 1st run-through of my Wheaties and didn't find anything outstanding, so am moving onto my copper Memorials today. It takes me like an hour to sort through 15. Smh. Hopefully see you again in a few days.

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By the way, Karen, if your passion is error coins, you'll surely have a lot of company. If our club (Willamette, in Portland, OR) is any sort of fair sample, there are enough error collectors that it seems half our presentations (typically one per monthly meeting) are slideshows and discussions of error pieces, and they are popular. There is also an organization, CONECA (ko-NECK-uh), that specializes in error coins. Yeah, there is the occasional crab in our hobby, and the occasional snooty type, but those are vastly outnumbered by people who know a lot and are happiest when sharing their knowledge. The CONECA site also has a metric *spoon*ton of articles about many error types. (As you know, a metric *spoon*ton equals 2.2 English *spoon*tons, so that's a great many.)

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6 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Yes Karen, the flaw you're seeing at the top of Lincoln's head is a planchet lamination.

No way?! I got something cooooel! Whoop! Awesome! Thanks Condor 101! 

Check this one out. I was telling JKK that I'd like to SEE a DD so I'd know what I was looking for and turned around and found this. I know it's a year to have but still a win for my knowledge of errors. 

Awesome JKK. Again, thanks for the info. Idk that errors are my passion, as I said I only just started, but I needed something to fill my time and when my Daddy-O passed and left a few coins and then I found a few in the attic I figured, What the Spoon, I'll see if I will like it. Here i am and it's DEF a time filler.

0327181801.jpg

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Are you sure that's a double die? I'm only seeing doubling on the motto, and it looks like it could be mechanical.

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2 minutes ago, JKK said:

Are you sure that's a double die? I'm only seeing doubling on the motto, and it looks like it could be mechanical.

Daggonit JKK. Don't you fool with me. There's nothing plump and round about that. 

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Just now, KarenHolcomb said:

Daggonit JKK. Don't you fool with me. There's nothing plump and round about that. 

I should be an expert on plumpness and roundness, but I'm not. Seriously, though, it has the shelfy look. I see no hint of any doubling on the date, and if there is any on the legend, the photo doesn't seem to show it. There isn't a 72-D double die in my Cherrypickers'.

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3 minutes ago, JKK said:

I should be an expert on plumpness and roundness, but I'm not. Seriously, though, it has the shelfy look. I see no hint of any doubling on the date, and if there is any on the legend, the photo doesn't seem to show it. There isn't a 72-D double die in my Cherrypickers'.

You weren't teasing then. Geesh! Here comes that spooniot feeling again.

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16 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

You weren't teasing then. Geesh! Here comes that spooniot feeling again.

Silver lining: I just finally got around to opening my April 2018 Coin World magazine and the cover story is on double die Lincs. There's a good discussion of how they occur with several pictures of the real deal. If you exerted yourself, you could probably locate a copy, and it would be very educational.

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Ok. Well, I'm going to keep my cool Quarter and my Kissing Indians Head, and even my copper dribbled bunny ears penny and maybe someday somebody will be looking for an unusual nickel or penny. I watcheda video last night and now realize that apparently what looks to me like miniature Grand Canyons on letters and numbers are the Doubled Dies I over looking for. My sight is terrible so I probably picked the wrong hobby, but I'm having fun and have been looking for a microscope that's compatible with WIN10-64 so I'll see better. I been learning, I think, a lot. Although when you see what I'm about to post about you'll probably disagree. Lol! Thanks guys!

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was reading this thread and have a few questions. JKK you said in regards to DD " Every coin struck from that die will exhibit the doubling,".  I have several 1955 pennies and have found none with doubling.  So how does that make what you say true?  Did they change the die when they discovered the error? and in regards to Karens post here...so are you saying the Mechanical error on Karens quarter isn't valuable?  I have a 1922 peace dollar with the DDO tiara, and have other 1922 peace that do not.  how does that happen? sorry newbie here.   Also do lamination errors hold any value?

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1 hour ago, BronerskyFamilyTrust said:

was reading this thread and have a few questions. JKK you said in regards to DD " Every coin struck from that die will exhibit the doubling,".  I have several 1955 pennies and have found none with doubling.  So how does that make what you say true?  Did they change the die when they discovered the error? and in regards to Karens post here...so are you saying the Mechanical error on Karens quarter isn't valuable?  I have a 1922 peace dollar with the DDO tiara, and have other 1922 peace that do not.  how does that happen? sorry newbie here.   Also do lamination errors hold any value?

Dies wear out. During the course of an issue, they will go through many dies. In the case of pennies, which were struck in great numbers, I would assume each branch mint that made pennies blew through thousands of dies. A great deal of physical force is inflicted upon planchets, dies, and equipment, and die and planchet is where all that force comes together. It takes a toll.

I don't think it's too likely that there would be two dies that happen to come out with exactly the same doubling, so my basic assumption is that the 55 was the fruit of a single die created with the flaw. I don't know whether someone spotted the DD and stopped the process, or whether it eventually broke, or whether they had a retirement point (as in, 'have the machine count to x00,000 strikes and then stop while we replace the die').

Thus, sadly, I've got a whole roll of 1955 pennies, and not a single one is a DD. They are very rare. But they happen enough for me to stop and take a good look at any 1955 Linc. Correct; I don't think Karen's quarter is valuable, though I think her enthusiasm for looking and learning is energizing. Your 1922 Peace dollar probably had the same path as the 55 DD: one die got messed up and struck however many pieces before it was retired for whatever reason. Obviously, there were far fewer silver dollars struck overall in 1922 than pennies thirty years later. I haven't looked up the DDO tiara but I can imagine such an error being harder for Mint employees to spot than the very pronounced doubled 5s (and other stuff) on a 55DD.

I think value for lamination errors depends. Some are minor and some are striking. There is also the basic condition of the coin itself: as with unflawed strikes, a nicer or uncirculated issue would affect pricing. There are guys at our club who know a lot more about errors than I do, though, and one guy is like the CONECA rep for Oregon; errors are most of what he does. Next meeting is a week from today, and I'll try and remember to ask him about lamination error value.

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On 3/27/2018 at 12:49 AM, JKK said:

I don't know what to say about the pictured penny, but as for double dies vs. mechanical doubling, here's what to know. A double die is a flaw that happens to the die itself. Every coin struck from that die will exhibit the doubling, as the problem occurred when the working die was made from the hub. As such, where prominent (mainly on letters and numbers), the second image will look like a version of the first (it will have the rounding you'd expect). With practice you can tell the direction the die must have shifted.

With mechanical doubling, what you see is little shelves--the shadows you mentioned. They do not look rounded. They look like the planchet slipped in place as the die was hitting it. The secondary images don't have rounding because they are not struck from the die itself, but from its mistake; they are not a die flaw and would not have occurred had dies and planchet all stayed where they were supposed to be. You can definitely see both with a 10x loupe.

Best way to see what a double die is supposed to look like is to find online pics of the famous 1955. Notice how the ghostly image presents a pretty good and clear version of the date. In mechanical doubling, there'd just be little shelves skirting the digits.

See JKK I'm totally not with you here. Like to me that one quarter I posted def looked DD but isn't and ones that just look smeared over are. It still makes no sense to me, although I do understand the concept of MD v/s DD a little better now, I just think they should be opposite what they are. But I'm getting better, I think. And I do enjoy hearing from you.

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6 hours ago, JKK said:

Dies wear out. During the course of an issue, they will go through many dies. In the case of pennies, which were struck in great numbers, I would assume each branch mint that made pennies blew through thousands of dies. A great deal of physical force is inflicted upon planchets, dies, and equipment, and die and planchet is where all that force comes together. It takes a toll.

I don't think it's too likely that there would be two dies that happen to come out with exactly the same doubling, so my basic assumption is that the 55 was the fruit of a single die created with the flaw. I don't know whether someone spotted the DD and stopped the process, or whether it eventually broke, or whether they had a retirement point (as in, 'have the machine count to x00,000 strikes and then stop while we replace the die').

Thus, sadly, I've got a whole roll of 1955 pennies, and not a single one is a DD. They are very rare. But they happen enough for me to stop and take a good look at any 1955 Linc. Correct; I don't think Karen's quarter is valuable, though I think her enthusiasm for looking and learning is energizing. Your 1922 Peace dollar probably had the same path as the 55 DD: one die got messed up and struck however many pieces before it was retired for whatever reason. Obviously, there were far fewer silver dollars struck overall in 1922 than pennies thirty years later. I haven't looked up the DDO tiara but I can imagine such an error being harder for Mint employees to spot than the very pronounced doubled 5s (and other stuff) on a 55DD.

I think value for lamination errors depends. Some are minor and some are striking. There is also the basic condition of the coin itself: as with unflawed strikes, a nicer or uncirculated issue would affect pricing. There are guys at our club who know a lot more about errors than I do, though, and one guy is like the CONECA rep for Oregon; errors are most of what he does. Next meeting is a week from today, and I'll try and remember to ask him about lamination error value.

See? Learning even more, I am. I never even thought about how many times a Die would need replacing or how many coins one could strike before wearing down. Thanks JKK!

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On 4/3/2018 at 6:39 PM, KarenHolcomb said:

Ok. Well, I'm going to keep my cool Quarter and my Kissing Indians Head, and even my copper dribbled bunny ears penny and maybe someday somebody will be looking for an unusual nickel or penny. I watcheda video last night and now realize that apparently what looks to me like miniature Grand Canyons on letters and numbers are the Doubled Dies I over looking for. My sight is terrible so I probably picked the wrong hobby, but I'm having fun and have been looking for a microscope that's compatible with WIN10-64 so I'll see better. I been learning, I think, a lot. Although when you see what I'm about to post about you'll probably disagree. Lol! Thanks guys!

There is one rule that must always apply to all numismatic situations 100% of the time: you should collect coins you like. Whether they are of great value, no value, whatever, this is supposed to be enjoyable. If you like them, you absolutely should keep them.

A coin microscope will teach you a great deal in a short amount of time. All sorts of cleaning will suddenly stand out like neon signs. Repunched mint marks and other cherrypicks will become identifiable. The difference between mechanical doubling and double dies will stand out. You'll get good looks at flow lines (little lines oriented on the coin like spokes on a bike wheel as the die mooshes the metal; source of mint luster). And when your microscope turns up a whole bundle of flaws on a coin you thought was much nicer, remember this: coins are identified and authenticated with microscopes, but not graded with them. Only at MS-69 and PR-69 is magnification an essential aspect of grading. Below that, it's eyeball. Everyone uses loupes and such, but the salient point is that if you can see a scratch with a loupe, but not with the naked eye, the scratch does not count (unless it's part of a cleaning pattern).

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3 minutes ago, JKK said:

There is one rule that must always apply to all numismatic situations 100% of the time: you should collect coins you like. Whether they are of great value, no value, whatever, this is supposed to be enjoyable. If you like them, you absolutely should keep them.

A coin microscope will teach you a great deal in a short amount of time. All sorts of cleaning will suddenly stand out like neon signs. Repunched mint marks and other cherrypicks will become identifiable. The difference between mechanical doubling and double dies will stand out. You'll get good looks at flow lines (little lines oriented on the coin like spokes on a bike wheel as the die mooshes the metal; source of mint luster). And when your microscope turns up a whole bundle of flaws on a coin you thought was much nicer, remember this: coins are identified and authenticated with microscopes, but not graded with them. Only at MS-69 and PR-69 is magnification an essential aspect of grading. Below that, it's eyeball. Everyone uses loupes and such, but the salient point is that if you can see a scratch with a loupe, but not with the naked eye, the scratch does not count (unless it's part of a cleaning pattern).

Hmmmm.....is this JKK? Because JKK said knows very little about varieties. LOL!  Seems like you been holding out just a wee bit. I am enjoying it. I doubt my family and pups are enjoying my not spending time with them though. Poor, poor them. My newest pup just tried to knock my table over as soon as I sat down. But yeah, I've already invested quite a bit of time in this and I plan to continue. Whether I spooning strike it rich with everyone else's pocket change or not. This will be the rest of my night.

0411181907.jpg

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1 hour ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Hmmmm.....is this JKK? Because JKK said knows very little about varieties.

 

Compared to others here, it's very true. There are some *spoon*aciously experienced sets of eyes on this forum. It was from them, in large part, that I learned what little I know. That and good books. Now, if you need help identifying a Roman coin, or any world coin from the 1600s onward, especially if it's in a foreign alphabet, yeah, I do all right most of the time. But I don't much collect errors. I don't kick them out of bed, so to speak, but I don't seek after them.

A good term for you to know is 'die state'. This means how much use the die had seen. 'Late die state' usually means that if the die was deteriorating, the evidence is stronger; for example if it was cracked, in an early die state the crack might leave a smaller impression, whereas late die state could lead right up to the last hit before it gave out, in which the crack might be very profound.

One error piece you've got to see is the three-legged buffalo nickel (1937-D). Some die polisher got overzealous and polished a lower leg right off the bison, leaving a hairy upper leg and a disembodied hoof. Presumably someone got an *spoon*chewing. I linked it for you partly because it has great blowups of how to spot phonies. There's also the 1955 Bugs Bunny Franklin half, the result of a die clash (the dies hit without a planchet between, damaging them). Wise Ben looks like he comes forth by night to feed on the living.

Also, looks like your local coin club is the Charleston Coin Club. You might check them out. They seem very active. I don't know them, of course, but it would surprise me if they were not friendly, helpful, and welcoming to hobby newcomers. And they would have some great eyes-on knowledge to help you with fine points.

Edited by JKK
add coin club info

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1 hour ago, JKK said:

Compared to others here, it's very true. There are some *spoon*aciously experienced sets of eyes on this forum. It was from them, in large part, that I learned what little I know. That and good books. Now, if you need help identifying a Roman coin, or any world coin from the 1600s onward, especially if it's in a foreign alphabet, yeah, I do all right most of the time. But I don't much collect errors. I don't kick them out of bed, so to speak, but I don't seek after them.

A good term for you to know is 'die state'. This means how much use the die had seen. 'Late die state' usually means that if the die was deteriorating, the evidence is stronger; for example if it was cracked, in an early die state the crack might leave a smaller impression, whereas late die state could lead right up to the last hit before it gave out, in which the crack might be very profound.

One error piece you've got to see is the three-legged buffalo nickel (1937-D). Some die polisher got overzealous and polished a lower leg right off the bison, leaving a hairy upper leg and a disembodied hoof. Presumably someone got an *spoon*chewing. I linked it for you partly because it has great blowups of how to spot phonies. There's also the 1955 Bugs Bunny Franklin half, the result of a die clash (the dies hit without a planchet between, damaging them). Wise Ben looks like he comes forth by night to feed on the living.

Also, looks like your local coin club is the Charleston Coin Club. You might check them out. They seem very active. I don't know them, of course, but it would surprise me if they were not friendly, helpful, and welcoming to hobby newcomers. And they would have some great eyes-on knowledge to help you with fine points.

Cool. Thank you.

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