ICG Coins graded by NGC
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I recently submitted three ICG graded coins I had to NGC.  Coin number one was an 1874 CC Trade Dollar ICG grade EF 40.  Coin number two was an 1875 CC Trade Dollar ICG grade AU 53.  Coin number three was an 1890 CC Morgan ICG grade MS 61.

Coin number one came back NGC XF Details Cleaned.  Coin number two came back NGC AU Details Cleaned.  Coin number three came back NGC AU 58 and I had expected a lesser grade on all three. Neither ICG slabs stated Details and I don't believe any of the slabs to have been tampered with.  I can find nothing on the web saying ICG would mislead it's customers.

Is it worth a second opinion or should I just suck it up? I trust NGC so I have no complaints.  I have one more ICC Trade Dollar to submit grade ICG AU 50 which I hope will come back at least NGC XF but fear it will also rate out as 'Cleaned'.  Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.  

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Experienced dealers and collectors can usually tell if a coin has been cleaned.  If you are worried about that, I would find a coin dealer in the area you live to ask them about the coin.  You are experiencing a great learning opportunity in that demonstrates multiple organizations that grade coins are giving their opinions and they are different.  I am not as experienced as many on here, but "cleaning" is often times  evident from photos, so if you include some, someone may be able to help

Edited by Davids5104

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Thanks for your help.  There are a couple reputable dealers in the area so I will ask.  I try very hard to buy PCGS or NGC and I have a few ANACS coins I bought years ago.  Given it's reputation I did not think it necessary to challenge NGC.  I suppose though, now you have me thinking, I might ask another.  Thanks again for your help. 

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Without pictures, one can only offer an opinion, so here is mine:

ICG could have either missed the cleaning on the first two coins, or not felt that it was harsh enough to detract from the appearance, and thus the value, of the coin. I do not know their usual practice concerning cleaned coins, and that practice could even have changed over time, so it might depend on when your coins were graded.  Additionally, NGC could have seen something that they did not like, and decided to "play it safe" and give them a details grade. My bet, though, is that NGC probably got it right, regardless of how they managed to get past IGC.

The third coin, which went from MS to AU, could have been "market graded" by ICG. That is where a coin is assigned a grade based not so much on its technical merits, but on its perceived value. Example: an MS61 coin can be a lower-end, baggy coin, but still technically BU, that may not be desirable to many collectors. An AU58 coin might be a pristine, mark free coin, that has just a slight rub on the high points. Many collectors would be willing to pay more for the nicer AU than the 61. Sometimes the grader (or seller, if the coin is raw) will give the coin a bump in grade which corresponds to the higher price. It can also happen with a monster toner or a coin with amazing eye appeal.   I don't like the practice, but, such is life.

Have someone look at your other TD, either in hand or by posting pics here, if you feel like you need another opinion before you submit it.

Good luck! (thumbsu

And, welcome to the forum :)

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Just Bob:

Thanks for the information.  I would have posted a pic but I had already sent it to NGC.  I have seen ICG coins grade "Details" - "Cleaned".  I was kind of let down when the NGC grades came in and the more I look at the two I got back cleaned they are just too shiny.  Maybe not for AU but for XF there's not a spot on it.  Oh well, a newbie learns; if the deal is too good to be true, it is.  Thanks for the information. 

Edited by AlexStoddart

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1 hour ago, AlexStoddart said:

 

.  Oh well, a newbie learns; if the deal is too good to be true, it is.

Trust me. You are not the only person on this forum to learn this lesson through experience. Hang in there. (thumbsu

And let us know how you make out.

Edited by Just Bob

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Finally!  Here are the before pics I took from Ebay of the ones I got back from NGC as being cleaned:  The problems is they do not look like this.  In the NGC slab they are both very shiny.  Thanks to all for your information and helpt.

s-l1600.thumb.jpg.842a165578d86812f6a90fc6b5af2162.jpgs-l1600A.thumb.jpg.062fe657cad8ceaeba2b6503c6bfaccc.jpgs-l1600B.thumb.jpg.19b4210b47a81b06d6c16037511206d5.jpgs-l1600C.jpg.b1d7db8f34adc1e7a7e0d56b5fbca7c0.jpg

Edited by AlexStoddart

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Are those parallel lines/ scratches on the coins or on the holders?

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Just Bob:  On the coins.  I don't have the original ICG slabs.  Not very visable on the 1874 but the 75 you can see them easily with a magnifier.    There are no scratches on the reverse of either coin.  What strikes me is the color of the EF 40.  It came back as shiny as a new minted coin.  Thanks for your help.

Alex

 

PS:  Both were purchased from different dealers.

Edited by AlexStoddart

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Just Bob:  These three pics are all the Trade dollars I have and all by IGC.

s-l1600E.jpg.494349137b1711dea4dd9799531df54c.jpgs-l1600F.jpg.1c458a0db60aa9ae8530f18d831411b8.jpg

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So, if I have this right, the 1874 went from XF40 to EF Details - Cleaned. The bright 1875 went from AU53 to AU Details - Cleaned. And, the 1875 in the first picture - the AU50 - is awaiting a grade. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if it came back "cleaned" also.

 I really wish that Mark or Doug or Bill or Micheal or some of the other members who have looked at thousands of coins over the years would give their opinion on what has been done to that 1874. That is one of the most unnatural looking coins I have ever seen. I don't know if it was an attempt at whizzing, or baking soda and a toothbrush, or just what was done to that coin, but someone really did a number on it.

Edited by Just Bob
wrong word

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Just Bob:  Thanks for all your help and information;  I must say I'm a little disappointed; I would have settled for any grade but not 'Details'.  So, I will expect the worst on the Trade Dollar that's in grading now.  The 1890 CC Morgan ICG Grade MS 61 came back AU 58 and I'll settle for that.  I don't think I'll be buying any ICG graded coins anymore.   Of all the Morgan Dollars I have, and that's quite a few, I have not a one graded 'Details'.  I used to, a long time ago, only buy ANACS graded coins.  PCGS and NGC hadn't risen to their status today.  Thanks again for your help; I really appreciate it.

Alex

PS The ICG AU50 1875 T $1 came back NGC XF;  Hooray!

Edited by AlexStoddart

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I agree the 1874 looks terrible. I have coins from ICG, NGC and PCGS, I have found that ICG will grade the coin (for example EF 45 and then label it as cleaned if the cleaning is obvious). In your case as another member suggested, ICG may have felt the cleaning was not enough to detract. I remember over 30 years ago, it was acceptable to clean a coin with soap and water for example, but once a coin got buffed or whizzed, the line was crossed. Now it seems that with NGC and PCGS if there is any indication of a cleaning, they are bailing and just saying "Details - cleaned". Not sure I agree but it is what it is, I don't believe that will change. I have found that ICG is no more or less accurate than the other two, they are just not as popular. My how times have changed.

 

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On 4/4/2018 at 12:34 PM, AlexStoddart said:

 

PS The ICG AU50 1875 T $1 came back NGC XF;  Hooray!

Since the forum does not give notification when a post has been edited, I did not see this until today.

Congratulations on having it grade! :golfclap:

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Just Bob and Tom Toner:  Many thanks to you both for your assistance and informative views on my problem.  Just one more question gentlemen:  What can I do with the two NGC Trade Dollars that were graded 'Details'?  I noticed they weren't selling very well on Ebay and I can understand why.  I may be new to coin collecting but I don't, and will not have, a cleaned coin in my collection.  I prefer to buy ANACS*, PCGS or NGC as they seem to be the most reliable.  So, do you think maybe an NGC dealer might buy them or do I try Ebay and what might a good price be to unload these?  If I get anything I would be satisfied.  Thanks again for all your help; I truly appreciate the information and guidance.

Alex

*From my early days of collecting.

Edited by AlexStoddart

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Since anyone here who has read this thread will know the story behind these coins, why not list them in the Marketplace section for starters? There may be some one here that would be interested in using them as a teaching tool or as a hole filler.

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On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:27 AM, AlexStoddart said:

Just Bob and Tom Toner:  Many thanks to you both for your assistance and informative views on my problem.  Just one more question gentlemen:  What can I do with the two NGC Trade Dollars that were graded 'Details'?  I noticed they weren't selling very well on Ebay and I can understand why.  I may be new to coin collecting but I don't, and will not have, a cleaned coin in my collection.  I prefer to buy ANACS*, PCGS or NGC as they seem to be the most reliable.  So, do you think maybe an NGC dealer might buy them or do I try Ebay and what might a good price be to unload these?  If I get anything I would be satisfied.  Thanks again for all your help; I truly appreciate the information and guidance.

Alex

*From my early days of collecting.

I agree, list them here in the market place with full disclosure. There are people that would like to have one of them just for the sake of having them. They may not be worth full value, but they are history and that is what a true collector can appreciate. So if you offer at a good price you may get a taker. List as "will consider best offer" or something like that. Even though it is cleaned, you still don't want to give it away.

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Tom Toner:  Thanks for the info and I will try that; maybe, as you say, someone will want one of them.

Alex

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