First Strike, and Early Release BS!!
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hello everyone! 

I am a fairly new numismatic guy, i only been collecting about 2 or 3 years. i am not an expert by no means but i could honestly say i have done my homework. a few days ago i got into a discussion with a fellow numismatic about first strike, and early release designation for modern coins and bullion, specially bullion. i read an article by the U.S Mint released in mid 1999 (I AM SORRY I WASN'T ABLE TO ATTACH THE ARTICLE) where it said (and i quote) the U.S. Mint does not recognize the term first strike or early releases designation as being anywhere accurate for their is no possible way to determine if the coin/bullion being graded is in fact one of the first coins minted or one of the first coins to be released. therefore we do not recognize that term. i see plenty of coin with that designation and grading companies have fees set up and dates so you could submit to get that grade. there is plenty of people that love to add a crazy premium to coins based in this designation wish i really don't agree with but it is what it is. so my question is, do you agree or disagree with this grade? do you think this designation should be completely removed? and why? i will love to hear your thoughts..

thank you!!!!

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Grading companies have people lined up to pay extra for this and other promotional labels.  A promotional label is not a grade and arguably has little or nothing to do with numismatics, but I'll let other people pay for the labels, because that cash cow helps control grading services' other costs.  Collect what you like, and if you don't care for promotional labels, don't collect them (and good for you).

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You will find the collecting community is somewhat split of these designations.  For the most part the long term established collectors know they have no meaning and do not like them.  HOWEVER since they do bring a premium for some reason many will buy them if they can get them for little or no premium in the hope that whenever it comes time to sell they will be able to get that premium price for them.  Many less knowledgeable or beginning collectors do chase them and pay a premium because they do think they are something special.  Usually a dealer will not pay a premium for them, but they will ask a premium when they sell them.

I see it for the most part as a way to transfer wealth from the beginners and less knowledgeable to the TPG's, the dealers, and the more knowledgeable collectors.

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First Strike, Early Release and the multitude of signature labels are marketing, nothing more.

But then, the "distinction" between a "69" and a "70" is also entirely contrived.

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First Strike is a 'window of opportunity' to submit coins/bullion to the grading company for that designation to be put on the label. It is nothing more than a 'marketing gimmick' to attract customers for submissions. Once the coin/bullion leaves the company, their 'image' follows the slab and slab label, leading to a certain amount of credence to the words imprinted on the label. Do your homework and learn about the nuances of what is true and what might very well be fantasy. 

Happy collecting...

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The U.S. Mint System produces a fair number of coins before it places a certain issue up for sale. There is no way to tell if a coin was the first one off dies or the last one, unless that dies are cracked or have some other evidence of a die state. ** Since almost all of the special process coins that the mint sells for a premium are of uniformly high quality, the die state issue almost never comes into play. Therefore all of this “First strike” and “Early Release” nomenclature is marketing ploy to get higher prices and more grading revenue for the certification companies. That’s why advanced collectors usually ignore this designation.

** Die State – Markers (die breaks, die repairs, die polishing and overall design device weaknesses) that numismatists note in the deterioration of a die as it is used that allow a ranking of coins from the early strikes to the terminal die state when the die was probably taken out of service.)

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FWIW, the 2007 GW coin covers per the US mint were produced with the First 50K coins struck.  One of them was a first strike.  

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"First strike, and early release" are complete bologna invented by marketing cons to grab $$ and give nothing in return.

The original idea was to promote the first few coins off of new die pairs as being the best and special. But the US Mint does not separate coins in that way, so there is no practical means of telling which coins were first and which were last.

 

Edited by RWB

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:31 PM, casman said:

FWIW, the 2007 GW coin covers per the US mint were produced with the First 50K coins struck.  One of them was a first strike.  

Aside from the superficial packaging (coin covers), this is literally true of every single coin ever struck.  One coin of the usually thousands, millions or even billions also has to be the first struck.

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I was one of the suckers who fell for it in the beginning when I first started buying slabbed coins (around 2011). About 6 months in I read that US Mint article and have stopped since, let's just call it 'tuition fee', lol.

 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:08 PM, Conder101 said:

I see it for the most part as a way to transfer wealth from the beginners and less knowledgeable to the TPG's, the dealers, and the more knowledgeable collectors.

This is right on the money, 'transfer of wealth'. I would even speculate that this run of 'First Strike' coins may include several die pair meaning you may not only get different die state 'First Strike' coins but likely even different die 'First Strike' coins.

Edited by numisport

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I would guarantee it that the bullion ASE first strikes come from multiple dies. They sometimes start striking the ASE's a couple months in advance. (One years they started in September.)  and they sell several million during that first month. That has to come from many dies because they have a life of only 300,000 coins or so. So those "First Strikes" contain multiple dies, and from early, middle, and late die states. Nothing special about them in any way.

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Just to be completely honest the mint did sell quarters in 2 coin sets that were "First day of Minting" and I have some of those sets that My daughter liked and asked for...

But I have no actual numbers of exactly how many were minted that day and how many 2 coin sets were sold. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 12:31 PM, MAULEMALL said:

Just to be completely honest the mint did sell quarters in 2 coin sets that were "First day of Minting" and I have some of those sets that My daughter liked and asked for...

But I have no actual numbers of exactly how many were minted that day and how many 2 coin sets were sold. 

I think you should look a little closer at the coins inside those holders. I don't believe that they are first day.

 I have a group if you are wanting some missing dates for your daughters set.. :grin:

Rick

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Furthermore, as I argued in a previous discussion thread, coins labeled "first strike" are probably on average slightly inferior to those without the designation, and therefore "first strike" labeled coins should generally sell for a slight discount, or preferably be avoided.

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18 hours ago, Six Mile Rick said:

I think you should look a little closer at the coins inside those holders. I don't believe that they are first day.

 I have a group if you are wanting some missing dates for your daughters set.. :grin:

Rick

No they are still in the mint packaging as we received them. So they are what they are..

Actual first day mintages..

Whether they "Look" it or not that is secondary as she enjoys them and even took them to school for the class to see..

It's funny that the Mint has actual first day mintages and the TPGs have actually basterdized the classification and I don't even know if these qualify..

After 10 years (She's 16) she let go of a couple Kennedys on ebay last month or so and made a nice profit.. 

 

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On 1/1/2018 at 3:47 PM, MAULEMALL said:

 

After 10 years (She's 16) she let go of a couple Kennedys on ebay last month or so and made a nice profit.. 

 

Which brings us back to the reason for the special designations: profit. Let us all raise our glasses and toast Capitalism. Except for her - she is too young.

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On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 1:29 PM, Just Bob said:

Which brings us back to the reason for the special designations: profit. Let us all raise our glasses and toast Capitalism. Except for her - she is too young.

No the Kennedy's were Accented Hair varieties that we sent in years ago for grading.. Both were bought in original mint packaging and picked as regular sets.. I think we paid $16.00 for both sets..

Here are the auctions

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Proof-Kennedy-Silver-Half-Dollar-Accented-Hair-NGC-PF68-Premium-Coin-/182814503037

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-50C-Accented-Hair-Proof-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-NGC-Proof-68-Cameo-/182862257855

She did alright.

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14 hours ago, MAULEMALL said:

No the Kennedy's were Accented Hair varieties that we sent in years ago for grading.. Both were bought in original mint packaging and picked as regular sets.. I think we paid $16.00 for both sets..

Here are the auctions

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Proof-Kennedy-Silver-Half-Dollar-Accented-Hair-NGC-PF68-Premium-Coin-/182814503037

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-50C-Accented-Hair-Proof-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-NGC-Proof-68-Cameo-/182862257855

She did alright.

She did very well, indeed. (thumbsu

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3 hours ago, Just Bob said:

She did very well, indeed. (thumbsu

Thank you .I have been trying to teach her the difference between money and Value..

She thought that because the Price guides said one thing That It's Value was set. I have been trying to explain that It's actual Value is set by others IE the Market ...

I think at the time the NGC price guide said the 64 AH at pr68 cameo was valued at 1.800.00.

But in fact the actual value was $800.00 because that was offered and the amount that was exchanged..

The other coin was valued at $500.00 I believe but again it's actual value was $295.00 because of the Monies received...

$16.00 plus certification, WHICH  at the time was free because I used my free submissions from when I joined and rejoined NGC.. $1.100.00 from the sales and she was really quite happy and I think she learned some things. As well as how to sell. She realized that the Pics were terrible and that she may have left some money on the table but she realizes that she did pretty outstanding...

She was genuinely happy that THEY got Value for thier money.

 

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3 hours ago, MAULEMALL said:

She was genuinely happy that THEY got Value for thier money.

 

If by "THEY" you mean the buyers of her coins, then it appears that you have also succeeded in teaching her some ethics. Well done, Dad.

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On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, MAULEMALL said:

No the Kennedy's were Accented Hair varieties that we sent in years ago for grading.. Both were bought in original mint packaging and picked as regular sets.. I think we paid $16.00 for both sets..

Here are the auctions

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Proof-Kennedy-Silver-Half-Dollar-Accented-Hair-NGC-PF68-Premium-Coin-/182814503037

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-50C-Accented-Hair-Proof-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-NGC-Proof-68-Cameo-/182862257855

She did alright.

As a side note it's been said that the 'pointed 9' dime which is a scarce variety was also found in the first roughly 100k sets before the accented hair was changed to a smoothed out version. These dimes are worth certification if heavy cameo.

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