Anyone else having trouble finding NGC coins

[erwindoc]

I have my favorite dealers websites in the past that I regularly browse, usually they have a great mix of coins and images that are fun to look at while I sip coffee and browse on Saturday morning or after a busy day at work.   I have noticed a frustrating trend that most of these coins are now in PCGS holders.  I have always been one to buy the coin not the holder and have a great mix in my collection but since the registry changes, it now makes a difference, at least if I want to add to my registry collection.  I hate to have to submit for cross over just to put the silly thing in my registry set.  Anyone else noticed this?  Suggestions on dealers sites(other than auction sites) with more NGC coins?

[MarkFeld]

52 minutes ago, erwindoc said:

I have my favorite dealers websites in the past that I regularly browse, usually they have a great mix of coins and images that are fun to look at while I sip coffee and browse on Saturday morning or after a busy day at work.   I have noticed a frustrating trend that most of these coins are now in PCGS holders.  I have always been one to buy the coin not the holder and have a great mix in my collection but since the registry changes, it now makes a difference, at least if I want to add to my registry collection.  I hate to have to submit for cross over just to put the silly thing in my registry set.  Anyone else noticed this?  Suggestions on dealers sites(other than auction sites) with more NGC coins?

I can't imagine enough NGC coins having been recently crossed into PCGS holders, to account for a noticeable difference in the availability of NGC coins.

[erwindoc]

Just venting frustration I guess, but here are some great examples of my favorite sites: Pinnacle Rarities 529 PCGS coins listed vs 51 NGC.  Americana Rare Coins 218 PCGS vs 60 NGC

[physics-fan3.14]

Is this, perhaps, indicative of the fact that PCGS coins are more popular in the marketplace? PCGS coins have always been more generally desired, and generally garnered a premium versus their NGC counterparts (whether justified or not). Now that the NGC registry is NGC only (a decision both foolish and shortsighted), everyone is scrambling for NGC coins. Is it any wonder then that NGC coins are harder to find? 

NGC was winning the TPG wars on the merit of their grading. They didn't need to resort to guerrilla warfare. But they did. So now, I couldn't care less if they live or die. 

[numisport]

I'm with Mark on this one. There is no way crossovers could cause a run on NGC coins to the extent anyone might imagine. Whats with all this gripe about registry sets anyway. Maybe its just possible that many collectors realize what good value hand picked NGC coins really are as opposed to higher priced similar PCGS coins. Shhhh.... don't tell anyone.

[Chriscando]

I have always noticed more PCGS coins than NGC coins in dealers inventory.   But as far as you having to pay for crossover if you find a coin in pcgs that you want in an ngc holder, I would recommend negotiating the deal and asking the dealer to cross it for you and make it crossing into ngc part of the deal, if it doesn't cross  there's no deal.  Most dealers would be fine with that, and if they wouldn't I'd be finding a new dealer.  Just last week I crossed registry coin from pcgs to ngc for a client, I was very happy to do that for him, he is happy and it's a win win for all...  

 

My 2 cents

 

[Keigwin]

29 minutes ago, Chriscando said:

"Just last week I crossed registry coin from pcgs to ngc for a client, I was very happy to do that for him, he is happy and it's a win win for all... "

 

Until it comes time to sell it.

Lance.

 

 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I'm one of those shoppers who has "hesitation blues" when buying a coin.

If it takes too long, then someone else puts me out of my misery, buys the coin, and then I don't suffer anymore because it's gone.

Since I tend to buy "keepers," and they're never going to be sold, because of this I eventually cross them over into NGC.

I have to admit that I ask on the cross-over to not cross if the grade cannot be matched.

But I'm batting 1000+ on cross-overs.  Every time, every single coin has crossed, and several times a "+" surprise has resulted.

So, I've got a few coins that were PCGS, but are now NGC, and Registry participation is not one of my motivations.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, USAuPzlBxBob said:

I'm one of those shoppers who has "hesitation blues" when buying a coin.

If it takes too long, then someone else puts me out of my misery, buys the coin, and then I don't suffer anymore because it's gone.

Since I tend to buy "keepers," and they're never going to be sold, because of this I eventually cross them over into NGC.

I have to admit that I ask on the cross-over to not cross if the grade cannot be matched.

But I'm batting 1000+ on cross-overs.  Every time, every single coin has crossed, and several times a "+" surprise has resulted.

So, I've got a few coins that were PCGS, but are now NGC, and Registry participation is not one of my motivations.

If not for registry participation, why do you cross them?

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Continuity, coherence, and dimensional constraints.

That's all I can reveal.  Very hush-hush.

[Zebo]

I haven't had any problems finding NGC coins, but then I probably collect different sets than you.

[erwindoc]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

I haven't had any problems finding NGC coins, but then I probably collect different sets than you.

Barber dimes and buffalo nickels have been the primary focus after my Washington's(but nearly done).  Still find Roosies with ease though, but where is the market for them?

[coinman_23885]

" Until it comes time to sell it. "

Sad, but true.  Plastic matters more than it should in the current market, and I cannot imagine why anyone would cross to NGC in this market.  

[coinman_23885]

There are fewer NGC holdered coins for sale because most people recognize that in most instances, the coin will be more liquid and sell for more money in a PCGS holder.  I have a large crossover submission at PCGS now for this reason.  I don't care for PCGS's shenanigans with its guarantee or its customer service, but when it comes time to sell, the return on my investment is paramount. 

[KMAG100]

Not what I collect......PCGS slabs are good way to leave money on the table.....But it does appear with the US coins they do get noticed.  The only problem I have with PCGS is they will put almost anything with color in a slab with a straight grade, really too bad. 

[coinman_23885]

4 minutes ago, kmag said:

Not what I collect......PCGS slabs are good way to leave money on the table.....But it does appear with the US coins they do get noticed.  The only problem I have with PCGS is they will put almost anything with color in a slab with a straight grade, really too bad. 

 

I'm guessing that you primarily collect world coins.  NGC appears to dominate the world coin market, and PCGS the U.S. coin market.

[KMAG100]

yep Mexico

[KMAG100]

Hideous.......Whatever...............not even sure the scratches alone would merit a grade

[KMAG100]

ok....i'm being mean .....i'll knock it off..

[Soder47]

Hi ran across this interesting article A couple weeks back. I can't quite remember where I guess that's just a sign that I read way too many coin magazines.  Anyhow the article was about how PCGS high graded coins (MS-70,PF-70) were adding more to the market than other top grading companies and starting to effect the market.  That's with considering that PCGS is getting the same quantity of coins submitted to grade while giving them higher grades.  No I have no clue if this is true or not as I said I only read it in an article but it did show examples of how quickly a coin that you thought would be scarce in a high-grade all the sudden plummets in value due to too many other high grades. If you consider that most modern coins that people buy are looking for the perfect 70. Now if anyone of these Top coin grading companies starts to overgrade their coins then I can see the future of coin collecting becoming pretty ridiculous. I'm not taking the article that I read as gospel but it does make you think about a few things.  Especially if you're not only collecting due to a level of collecting but also as an investment for future.  Well I just wanted to throw that out there since it popped in my head when I saw this post. Good luck out there collecting. 

[TonerGuy]

11 hours ago, kmag said:

Not what I collect......PCGS slabs are good way to leave money on the table.....But it does appear with the US coins they do get noticed.  The only problem I have with PCGS is they will put almost anything with color in a slab with a straight grade, really too bad. 

Yes, you can also find all the wildly toned modern US coins you want in PCGS plastic as well. I dont know if PCGS is not concerned with this market, if they intend on making these coins MA or the graders dont really understand toning on modern coins. Either way, this could come back to hurt them in 10-20-30 years when this market heats up more. Collectors should think long term about which plastic surrounds their coins. Who is #1 today might not be who's #1 fifteen years from now.

[Soder47]

I still don't understand how toned to the max coins can bump up the grade. Where the heck is that listed in the Sheldon scale? A gem WHITE coin can go for way less than a ice cream cone swirl pattern one.?

[TonerGuy]

6 minutes ago, Soder47 said:

I still don't understand how toned to the max coins can bump up the grade. Where the heck is that listed in the Sheldon scale? A gem WHITE coin can go for way less than a ice cream cone swirl pattern one.?

Grading is fluid and subjective. Its not technical or precise. What determines a grade is several factors. Each person/grader brings their own subjective likes and dislikes to the grading process. Some people prefer strike, some prefer surface preservation, some like luster and others like toning. Those that find the toning to be attractive on a coin might feel as though it adds to the overall appearance of the coin and thus might warrant a bump in the grade.

I dont agree with toning adding to the grade. I like the way NGC handles toning and adds a * grade. I think adding a bump to the coin is a way of purposely adding a distinct value without truly understanding the toned coin market.

For instance, take for example, a beautifully toned War Nickel. In MS66 that coin might be worth approx $30. A toned example might be worth $50-$100. But with the color bump in grade, taking that MS66 coin and giving it an MS67 - that coin is then going to be a $80 to $250 coin. And on top of that bump the market is still going to add a premium in toning. So that MS67 coin, which is really a high-end MS66 coin might now sell for $400-$500, a more than 10x premium for toning with the grade bump. Whereas, an NGC MS66 Star coin ends up selling for a more accurate and fair price because you're starting at the true grade of the coin. It might still sell for $400 to $500 but the buyer knows he/she is paying just for the color.

[MarkFeld]

31 minutes ago, Soder47 said:

I still don't understand how toned to the max coins can bump up the grade. Where the heck is that listed in the Sheldon scale? A gem WHITE coin can go for way less than a ice cream cone swirl pattern one.?

Like/agree with it or not, eye-appeal is part of a coin's grade. And toning can add to a coin's eye appeal.

[MarkFeld]

14 minutes ago, TonerGuy said:

Grading is fluid and subjective. Its not technical or precise. What determines a grade is several factors. Each person/grader brings their own subjective likes and dislikes to the grading process. Some people prefer strike, some prefer surface preservation, some like luster and others like toning. Those that find the toning to be attractive on a coin might feel as though it adds to the overall appearance of the coin and thus might warrant a bump in the grade.

I dont agree with toning adding to the grade. I like the way NGC handles toning and adds a * grade. I think adding a bump to the coin is a way of purposely adding a distinct value without truly understanding the toned coin market.

For instance, take for example, a beautifully toned War Nickel. In MS66 that coin might be worth approx $30. A toned example might be worth $50-$100. But with the color bump in grade, taking that MS66 coin and giving it an MS67 - that coin is then going to be a $80 to $250 coin. And on top of that bump the market is still going to add a premium in toning. So that MS67 coin, which is really a high-end MS66 coin might now sell for $400-$500, a more than 10x premium for toning with the grade bump. Whereas, an NGC MS66 Star coin ends up selling for a more accurate and fair price because you're starting at the true grade of the coin. It might still sell for $400 to $500 but the buyer knows he/she is paying just for the color.

But, independently from awarding a star for superior eye appeal,  NGC will bump up a coin's grade for color, too.

[TonerGuy]

9 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

But, independently from awarding a star for superior eye appeal,  NGC will bump up a coin's grade for color, too.

I never said they they never bumped for color. In my experiences and in the coins I look at, it is far less likely to find NGC coins with bumps for color but I only look at a small micro-niche of coins within the hobby. I never said that only PCGS graders bump for color. But from a company perspective, I believe NGC's * designation for superior eye appeal is a way for the company to try to give their graders an option not to bump for color but rather give a coin a * designation. I tend to appreciate the honesty in that approach.

Do the graders see it that way ? IDK perhaps you can shed some light on what really happens in the grading room when a beautifully toned coin comes in...

[MarkFeld]

45 minutes ago, TonerGuy said:

I never said they they never bumped for color. In my experiences and in the coins I look at, it is far less likely to find NGC coins with bumps for color but I only look at a small micro-niche of coins within the hobby. I never said that only PCGS graders bump for color. But from a company perspective, I believe NGC's * designation for superior eye appeal is a way for the company to try to give their graders an option not to bump for color but rather give a coin a * designation. I tend to appreciate the honesty in that approach.

Do the graders see it that way ? IDK perhaps you can shed some light on what really happens in the grading room when a beautifully toned coin comes in...

My general impression is that NGC bumps grades for color as much as PCGS does, despite the star option.

[TonerGuy]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

My general impression is that NGC bumps grades for color as much as PCGS does, despite the star option.

I dont disagree, its just not been my experience in my micro-niche. However, I do want to clarify - are you saying that NGC the company as a general rule, condones/endorses toning bumps as a policy or are you saying that individual graders working at NGC give bumps for color ?

I think that there's a difference between individual employees preferences vs a company's unstated policy. Or do you believe its both ?

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, TonerGuy said:

I dont disagree, its just not been my experience in my micro-niche. However, I do want to clarify - are you saying that NGC the company as a general rule, condones/endorses toning bumps as a policy or are you saying that individual graders working at NGC give bumps for color ?

I think that there's a difference between individual employees preferences vs a company's unstated policy. Or do you believe its both ?

My belief is that it's both.

[coinman_23885]

5 hours ago, TonerGuy said:

Yes, you can also find all the wildly toned modern US coins you want in PCGS plastic as well. I dont know if PCGS is not concerned with this market, if they intend on making these coins MA or the graders dont really understand toning on modern coins. Either way, this could come back to hurt them in 10-20-30 years when this market heats up more. Collectors should think long term about which plastic surrounds their coins. Who is #1 today might not be who's #1 fifteen years from now.

 

The people who purchase those AT coins at exorbitant premiums are the ones that are going to be hurt the most.  The guarantee does not compensate for toning premium.  As for your other posts regarding color bumps, I suspect the grading services will do what they have done all along: grade inflate their errors away.  That weak MS66 in a 67 holder will be what is routinely called MS67 in a few years.