Is this "CAC" thing a load of *spoon* or what?
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Aren't they, in a way, saying the grade on the slab is wrong?

 

Not necessarily. In fact, they have stated that just because they don't sticker a coin doesn't mean it's over-graded. They might think it's (in my words) a low end or ordinary example for the grade.

 

If I remember correctly, Mark, during the original formation meetings and the subsequent formation and implementation, I recall the explanation was ordinary for the grade and this was not the market CAC was making.

Yes and at CAC's outset it was his intention to make a market for 'sight unseen' coins. I really don't look at it like that because I buy the coin, not the holder. However I consider CAC a valuable 4th party opinion and after I'm gone my kids will have a full industry wide backing if they wish to sell them. Incidentally I am a collector submitter and have the good luck of having nearly every one of my coins beaned although several took 2 attempts.

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If one learns to grade coins fairly accurately for themselves . CAC is meaningless !

It's only true value ,lies with those who have little to no knowledge of the hobby . Or, what would

be deemed correct for grades of value. Speaking for myself ,CAC stickers although sparkly and pretty, hold no value ! I buy slabbed coins for authentication purposes . Grading of the coin is so subjective and all over the place today . Even at the top rated services! There are very serious discrepancies between coins of the same grade , when compared to one another ,and graded by the same service ! As well as those graded and compared between different services ! So,really it's just a shot in the dark, if you don't have a decent working knowledge of what is solid for the respective grades. To anyone interested, I would highly recommend they reference just one grading book and one only. The Official A.N.A. Grading Standards for United States Coins.

In all my years as a collector, (45yrs) it has never failed me. For all intents and purposes for me it has been the equivalent of a numismatic bible!

 

 

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Point in case , There is currently a nice PCGS graded 1916 -D Mercury dime VF-25 being

auctioned by Great Collections. Compare it to a nice 1916 -D that I purchased a few yrs ago that was graded by ANACS as F-12. I have provided photos of mine. I feel mine was under graded by ANACS and the aforementioned PCGS example is over graded . To which I would have given a grade of VF-20 to VF-25 to my coin and a grade of F-15 to the PCGS example. But that's just my non - expert opinion !

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Reid1836, your 1916-D Mercury Dime would be EF-40 or 45 using the current grading standards. What used to VG with respect to the vertical lines on the ax is now VF.

 

The grading services caused this change single handedly. If you want a key date Mercury dime with all of the vertical lines, you have buy one in at least EF.

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If one learns to grade coins fairly accurately for themselves . CAC is meaningless !

It's only true value ,lies with those who have little to no knowledge of the hobby . Or, what would

be deemed correct for grades of value. Speaking for myself ,CAC stickers although sparkly and pretty, hold no value ! I buy slabbed coins for authentication purposes . Grading of the coin is so subjective and all over the place today . Even at the top rated services! There are very serious discrepancies between coins of the same grade , when compared to one another ,and graded by the same service ! As well as those graded and compared between different services ! So,really it's just a shot in the dark, if you don't have a decent working knowledge of what is solid for the respective grades. To anyone interested, I would highly recommend they reference just one grading book and one only. The Official A.N.A. Grading Standards for United States Coins.

In all my years as a collector, (45yrs) it has never failed me. For all intents and purposes for me it has been the equivalent of a numismatic bible!

 

 

Well, I feel that I know how to grade coins "fairly accurately" and CAC isn't meaningless to me. I also believe that I have more than "little to no knowledge of the hobby" and CAC still has value to me. So, I believe that your sweeping comments are way off base.

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If one learns to grade coins fairly accurately for themselves . CAC is meaningless !

It's only true value ,lies with those who have little to no knowledge of the hobby . Or, what would

be deemed correct for grades of value. Speaking for myself ,CAC stickers although sparkly and pretty, hold no value ! I buy slabbed coins for authentication purposes . Grading of the coin is so subjective and all over the place today . Even at the top rated services! There are very serious discrepancies between coins of the same grade , when compared to one another ,and graded by the same service ! As well as those graded and compared between different services ! So,really it's just a shot in the dark, if you don't have a decent working knowledge of what is solid for the respective grades. To anyone interested, I would highly recommend they reference just one grading book and one only. The Official A.N.A. Grading Standards for United States Coins.

In all my years as a collector, (45yrs) it has never failed me. For all intents and purposes for me it has been the equivalent of a numismatic bible!

 

 

Well, I feel that I know how to grade coins "fairly accurately" and CAC isn't meaningless to me. I also believe that I have more than "little to no knowledge of the hobby" and CAC still has value to me. So, I believe that your sweeping comments are way off base.

 

+1. Well said.

 

mark

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If one learns to grade coins fairly accurately for themselves . CAC is meaningless !

 

I disagree. CAC adds liquidity and basically acts as insurance. For auctions, it is also analogous to having someone lot view for you (and one who will buy it if you hate it). Also, no matter how proficient a grader you are, you can always learn from others.

 

With this said, I do not take the sycophantic approach that some do (CAC-only or it will not be bought). For me it comes down to (1) whether I like it and (2) whether it is priced reasonably for the respective quality and eye appeal that the piece has. In arriving at that determination, I evaluate all of the tools and data at my disposal: TPG opinion, CAC opinion when available, and my personal knowledge and taste. Reasonable minds may differ.

 

CAC is often heavily criticized. I do not deny that there are market effects, both positive and negative, resulting from its inception. I will say that I think that many (but not all) of the criticisms are really not CAC's fault but are due to the larger collecting community (e.g. not being knowledgeable or proficient and using stickers/labels as crutches, greed of sellers in the market, CAC only mentality, etc.). The same could be said of the third party grading services.

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Well, I feel that I know how to grade coins "fairly accurately" and CAC isn't meaningless to me. I also believe that I have more than "little to no knowledge of the hobby" and CAC still has value to me. So, I believe that your sweeping comments are way off base.

Agree with Mark, who has been generous with his time on these Forums giving us his opinion, advice, and expertise.

 

CAC is 1 more well-informed opinion. If you don't need it, you don't need it. Most in the hobby sadly do or at least benefit from it (and I include myself in that group).

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Well, I feel that I know how to grade coins "fairly accurately" and CAC isn't meaningless to me. I also believe that I have more than "little to no knowledge of the hobby" and CAC still has value to me. So, I believe that your sweeping comments are way off base.

Agree with Mark, who has been generous with his time on these Forums giving us his opinion, advice, and expertise.

 

CAC is 1 more well-informed opinion. If you don't need it, you don't need it. Most in the hobby sadly do or at least benefit from it (and I include myself in that group).

 

As do experienced collectors that buy 100K plus coins

 

Mark

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Aren't they, in a way, saying the grade on the slab is wrong?

There is no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" grade, because a grade is not objective. It's an opinion.

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Perhaps Mark! Considering many a dealer and auction service use the little green egg sticker on a slab to inflate the price , as compared to a comparable coin without it ! So I'm sure many dealers as well those collectors who buy and sell on a consistent basis such as yourself . Definitely see the benefits of the pretty little sticker ! It's called higher profits! Undeniably higher cost to the buyer of such sticker coins . Simply another gimmick to extract higher profits for nothing. I await the next level . What shall we have this time ? Perhaps a little gold star with another services , or nationally known dealers ensignia embossed on it ! Just to ensure that the opinion of the grading service that certified/graded the coin and the CAC services opinion as to the grading services opinion are considered by the Little Gold Star Corp as being correct in their opinion and on and on and on. Give me a break !

You're most welcome to pay top dollar for that pretty little green sticker. As for me , I will just have to be satisfied with using my own judgement as to the quality of the coins I purchase at what is most certainly a discounted price by comparison. In fact , I applaud you . Bravo !

The Late Great Mr. P. T. Barnum would certainly be amused at the parallel to his famous quote.

"There is a sucker born every minute " .

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Perhaps Mark! Considering many a dealer and auction service use the little green egg sticker on a slab to inflate the price , as compared to a comparable coin without it ! So I'm sure many dealers as well those collectors who buy and sell on a consistent basis such as yourself . Definitely see the benefits of the pretty little sticker ! It's called higher profits! Undeniably higher cost to the buyer of such sticker coins . Simply another gimmick to extract higher profits for nothing. I await the next level . What shall we have this time ? Perhaps a little gold star with another services , or nationally known dealers ensignia embossed on it ! Just to ensure that the opinion of the grading service that certified/graded the coin and the CAC services opinion as to the grading services opinion are considered by the Little Gold Star Corp as being correct in their opinion and on and on and on. Give me a break !

You're most welcome to pay top dollar for that pretty little green sticker. As for me , I will just have to be satisfied with using my own judgement as to the quality of the coins I purchase at what is most certainly a discounted price by comparison. In fact , I applaud you . Bravo !

The Late Great Mr. P. T. Barnum would certainly be amused at the parallel to his famous quote.

"There is a sucker born every minute " .

 

I didn't say anything about higher prices for CAC coins being the "meaning" and "value" that I and others can derive from CAC. Perhaps you think you can grade coins and detect doctoring as well as they can. I can't and I doubt that you can, either.

 

By the way, do you have the same attitude regarding buying certified coins, that you do about CAC? If not, why not? Certified coins usually cost more than uncertified ones?

Edited by MarkFeld

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Perhaps Mark! Considering many a dealer and auction service use the little green egg sticker on a slab to inflate the price , as compared to a comparable coin without it ! So I'm sure many dealers as well those collectors who buy and sell on a consistent basis such as yourself . Definitely see the benefits of the pretty little sticker ! It's called higher profits! Undeniably higher cost to the buyer of such sticker coins . Simply another gimmick to extract higher profits for nothing. I await the next level . What shall we have this time ? Perhaps a little gold star with another services , or nationally known dealers ensignia embossed on it ! Just to ensure that the opinion of the grading service that certified/graded the coin and the CAC services opinion as to the grading services opinion are considered by the Little Gold Star Corp as being correct in their opinion and on and on and on. Give me a break !

You're most welcome to pay top dollar for that pretty little green sticker. As for me , I will just have to be satisfied with using my own judgement as to the quality of the coins I purchase at what is most certainly a discounted price by comparison. In fact , I applaud you . Bravo !

The Late Great Mr. P. T. Barnum would certainly be amused at the parallel to his famous quote.

"There is a sucker born every minute " .

 

Not that it matters much, but Barnum didn't say that. It was David Hannum, a banker, who himself was not so kissyface huggybear honest.

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 5:31 PM, WoodenJefferson said:

To bean or not to bean, that is the question?

Yes.

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If CAC liked my coin (beaned it), then I think they are great!  If CAC passed (no bean) on my coin, I begin to question my own ability for eye appeal.  Do I get rid of the coin simply because JA did not bean it?  Of course not...it is just an opinion.

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11 minutes ago, oih82w8 said:

If CAC liked my coin (beaned it), then I think they are great!  If CAC passed (no bean) on my coin, I begin to question my own ability for eye appeal.  Do I get rid of the coin simply because JA did not bean it?  Of course not...it is just an opinion.

But, it might not be your own lack of ability for eye appeal. It may be the CAC lack of ability for the particular coin, or may reflect a coin that CAC is not making a market in, or has already saturated the market being made for the particular coin. If your own ability is satisfactory to you, while it is nice to have a corresponding opinion, that does not negate your opinion at all. Of course, you know this, so I am not sure why I even mention it, except I feel bad when I see a person chastising themselves for no logical reason.:cry: 

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Is there a dollar value where a CAC review begins to make sense ? $100 coin, a $500 coin an $1000+ coin ?

Also, what is CAC's position when it comes to toning ? Is their sticker also an endorsement of natural toning ? Or is that not even looked at ?

Sorry for perhaps rudimentary questions when it comes to CAC but Im just starting to look into them...

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17 minutes ago, TonerGuy said:

Is there a dollar value where a CAC review begins to make sense ? $100 coin, a $500 coin an $1000+ coin ?

Also, what is CAC's position when it comes to toning ? Is their sticker also an endorsement of natural toning ? Or is that not even looked at ?

Sorry for perhaps rudimentary questions when it comes to CAC but Im just starting to look into them...

7

For all coins above $1000, CAC makes sense to me.  CAC does review the toning and a sticker is an endorsement that the coin is unmolested/natural.  CAC will not pay more for toned coins, however.

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they don’t call em “green beans” for nothing.

really, how much is one grean worth at your local grocery store?

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7 hours ago, t-arc said:

 

 

7 hours ago, t-arc said:

they don’t call em “green beans” for nothing.

really, how much is one grean worth at your local grocery store?

What does one have to do with the other?

Edited by MarkFeld

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yes you have hit the nail on the head.  it is a load of spoon!!!

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3 hours ago, t-arc said:

yes you have hit the nail on the head.  it is a load of spoon!!!

It is of course, your choice, but you provided zero basis for your opinion/conclusion. 

Edited by MarkFeld

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On 2/13/2017 at 4:18 PM, coinman_23885 said:

CAC does review the toning and a sticker is an endorsement that the coin is unmolested/natural.  

That was one of the things the slab was supposed to do.

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"CAC does review the toning and a sticker is an endorsement that the coin is unmolested/natural."

Not in all cases. Recently a dealer sent me a notice that he had a coin that had been on my want list for over a year. The grade was PCGS MS-63, CAC. I thought, "Great! Now I will be able to complete that set," The price was quite high, $2,000 over the PCGS "Coin Facts" quote. When I saw pictures of the coin I was severly disappointed. When I saw the coin in person my concerns were confirmed.

The coin was an AU-58 with an obvious rub in both the obverse and reverse fields. It also was a gold coin that had been dipped. The dealer admitted that it did not have original color. It could have passed as an MS-62 according to "market grading" but no more. The trouble is the extra grading point doubled the price, and the extra $2,000 for the CAC sticker made it even less viable.

Why did CAC put a sticker on this over graded coin? I have no idea, but this is one more example of why CAC is over rated in my opinion. All CAC has do is say "yes" or "no" to a coin. That's a lot less than the grading services are asked to do, and yet CAC is put up on a pedestal, and there are people who constantly attack those who do not support it unconditionally.

Edited by BillJones

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No it's not. Unfortunately doctored coins have gotten by the top grading services. CAC gives you a second opinion that the coin hasn't been doctored and is what the label is saying it is. The TPGs do an excellent job of authenticating and grading, but mistakes do happen.

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As much as it hurts me I do have to agree with Bill Jones on some of his points.

I just purchased a coin to replace my 1872 PCGS MS63 RB CAC 2 Cent Piece with a 1872 (of course) PCGS MS65 BRN CAC example. The reason being is that the 63 example was dipped and IMHO that is the reason it got the RB designation. I'm not a professional by any means but I will wager that anyone that collects copper would agree with my assumption that my coin was dipped..... a long time ago but it was defiantly dipped. I really did not see the "problem" when I purchased it because I got caught up in the excitement of obtaining an MS 1872 2 Cent piece with a CAC sticker on the slab, or maybe I just trusted the CAC sticker and ignored my instincts?

Lots and lots of coins have been cleaned in the past and the past has taken care of some of the "altered surfaces" with time. I'm now wondering if this has become part of the norm as far as coin grading is concerned.

Guess I have to be more observant in the future and less reliant on the grading services. 

 

Ray

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On 2/5/2017 at 1:20 PM, reid1836 said:

Point in case , There is currently a nice PCGS graded 1916 -D Mercury dime VF-25 being

auctioned by Great Collections. Compare it to a nice 1916 -D that I purchased a few yrs ago that was graded by ANACS as F-12. I have provided photos of mine. I feel mine was under graded by ANACS and the aforementioned PCGS example is over graded . To which I would have given a grade of VF-20 to VF-25 to my coin and a grade of F-15 to the PCGS example. But that's just my non - expert opinion !

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167820.png.3e33113d9a4b4c6ae41f9712d28c73b6.png

I like VF 30 on the pictured coin.

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Nice 1916-D Mercury Dime, Coinman1794!!!

That coin would at least make VF-35 in a main stream holder under the watered down standards for coins like this today. It might make EF-40.

When I was a dealer I had a want list for a 1916-D Mercury Dime. The customer and I looked at the Gray Sheet and came to the conclusion that he could afford a VF. When I started shopping for the coin I found out that what used to be VG is now VF. The lines on the ax handle were not complete on any of the coins I say. I finnally found a VF35 graded piece that I could call VF-20 to fill his want list for a bit of extra money.

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