Back to the Hobby Protection Act – Please.

[coinman_23885]

I think I'd like to petition NGC to create a separate DCarr forum. That way this apparently eternal battle can be more easily joined by all the combatants because they will not need to waste time sorting through other threads.

 

Mark

 

 

I think it is more likely that they would prohibit anymore DCarr threads and lock the current ones. I would actually support locking the threads if it would prevent Carr from being able to edit his public statements on the matter.

[robec1347]

 

As you edit yours. !!

[coinman_23885]

As you edit yours. !!

 

Locking the thread would preserve everything, and lock my posts as well. I am not opposed to that. My edits have been largely stylistic, and I stand behind the substance of everything I have said including my opinion belief that his pieces are counterfeits and also violate the HPA. There has been no change in my

position.

[dcarr]

I find it odd that someone would embark on a business venture of questionable legality when the person starting the business questioned the legality of the operation enough to write the Secret Service, U.S. Mint, and U.S. District Attorney to seek legal advice at the beginning. Of course, Carr ignored the admonition from those federal agencies that the government and its employees cannot give legal advice to citizens. Rather than seeking legal advice from a private attorney or actually acquiring the adjudication that he himself initially thought was necessary, he strikes the coins anyway. I think that is brazen and begging for problems, but if he wants to roll the dice with his business and his future, he can go for it. He has much to lose and little to gain.

 

You are making false assumptions here, and presenting them as fact.

What actually happened is significantly different than what you describe.

 

How so? I based my comments on things you have said throughout the years on forums concerning contacting various federal agencies, and receiving a response that the government cannot and will not give advisory opinions or otherwise provide legal advice.

 

Your recollection is faulty. Some of the things wrong in your post:

 

"... questioned the legality of the operation enough to write the Secret Service, U.S. Mint, and U.S. District Attorney ..."

 

I did not write to the Secret Service, US Mint, or US Attorney. Coin World did not either. They contacted the first two by phone and then obtained a phone number for the third and suggested that I call, which I did. After describing the situation, the replies from all three were basically that they do not render legal opinions for the public. I did write to the FTC twice.

 

"Carr ignored the admonition from those federal agencies that the government and its employees cannot give legal advice to citizens."

 

See above.

 

"Rather than seeking legal advice from a private attorney ..."

 

You wrongly assume this was not done.

 

"... he strikes the coins anyway."

 

I am not "striking" [new] coins as you imply. I am over-striking existing coins to produce novelty items.

 

"... if he wants to roll the dice with his business and his future, he can go for it."

 

A gross mischaracterization of the situation (as usual).

 

P.S. Here is a fun bit of trivia: Did you know that Bernard Von NotHaus ran his entire operation by a private attorney that approved of his idea? Silly, huh? The federal district court in North Carolina didn't care. That's why I made the comments that I would have wanted a binding adjudication prior to doing anything or prior to producing anything new. Apparently, that makes me odd or eccentric to many of the posters here.

 

Some people dislike lawyers, so what do you expect ?

Some people don't like unfamiliar things, as I expected.

 

Von NotHaus and his organization were indicted basically for uttering. He apparently didn't have a very good trial lawyer because his activities arguably did not constitute what he was convicted of, which was "counterfeiting".

[dcarr]

No reply to the above ?

 

I will let my words and positions speak for themselves. This is not personal, in my opinion (and I believe it is supported by case law) you are running a high tech counterfeiting operation. Yes, if I had my way, I would deprive you of the ability to produce your fantasy coins (unless they were marked as required by the HPA).

 

That is an answer to a question that I did not ask.

 

The question is:

 

If you had your way, would do deprive knowledgeable collectors from being able to collect numismatic items that they fully understand and enjoy ?

In other words, do you feel that you have the right and/or responsibility to dictate what others can collect ?

 

Case law is devoid of instances where existing coins are over-struck or otherwise altered so as to have fantasy dates. There are cases of over-striking (to produce false pre-existing rare dates), and there are cases with fantasy dates (but as newly-fabricated pieces, not over-strikes of existing pieces). And both of these types of cases always involved intentional fraud.

 

PS:

You say this is not "personal". But the apparently inflammatory rhetoric makes it seem otherwise.

 

[MJ]

I think I'd like to petition NGC to create a separate DCarr forum. That way this apparently eternal battle can be more easily joined by all the combatants because they will not need to waste time sorting through other threads.

 

Mark

 

 

 

Cage match style. Sweet

 

mark

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Here is an idea to assuage concerns about aesthetics Dan, and it has COPY on it too:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNITED-STATES-KENNEDY-HALF-DOLLAR-COMMEMORATIVE-1-OUNCE-SILVER-1964-GEM-P-L-BU-/361776891771?hash=item543b95477b:g:mQ4AAOSwFV9XzH08

[dcarr]

Here is an idea to assuage concerns about aesthetics Dan, and it has COPY on it too:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNITED-STATES-KENNEDY-HALF-DOLLAR-COMMEMORATIVE-1-OUNCE-SILVER-1964-GEM-P-L-BU-/361776891771?hash=item543b95477b:g:mQ4AAOSwFV9XzH08

 

I had one of those at one time (maybe still have it somewhere).

They are not an over-strike, of course.

 

The closest thing that I have produced was these:

 

[Hard Times]

Here is an idea to assuage concerns about aesthetics Dan, and it has COPY on it too:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNITED-STATES-KENNEDY-HALF-DOLLAR-COMMEMORATIVE-1-OUNCE-SILVER-1964-GEM-P-L-BU-/361776891771?hash=item543b95477b:g:mQ4AAOSwFV9XzH08

 

I had one of those at one time (maybe still have it somewhere).

They are not an over-strike, of course.

 

The closest thing that I have produced was these:

 

And where is the word 'COPY' on these likenesses of US coins in order to comply with the HPA?

 

You see, this is why folks are so disturbed about many of your products. The other maker of the product in the link seems to have understood this. Oh well, like I said, if the feds ever get around to it and you somehow become a priority, it will be painful for you either way, whether your products are legal or not. Never fun when the feds come calling.

 

Best, HT

[ElmerFusterpuck]

I happen to have those rounds produced by Mr. Carr above.

 

Do you really need the word 'COPY' on those to put your mind at ease? The designs are surrounded by another rim that says .999 fine, which surely doesn't equal to the original's .900 fineness.

 

Some of you must like to grind and sharpen your axes over everything, and a few others just come across as miserable, petty and insufferable.

 

Whatever, think I'll just enjoy my purchases.

[MarkFeld]

I happen to have those rounds produced by Mr. Carr above.

 

Do you really need the word 'COPY' on those to put your mind at ease? The designs are surrounded by another rim that says .999 fine, which surely doesn't equal to the original's .900 fineness.

 

Some of you must like to grind and sharpen your axes over everything, and a few others just come across as miserable, petty and insufferable.

 

Whatever, think I'll just enjoy my purchases.

 

Unless I'm confusing you with another poster - and if I am, I apologize - I've seen you post some very nice, wholesome coins on the PCGS forum. That tells me you're far more knowledgeable about coins than the type of buyer that prevents some of us from having our minds at ease.

 

I suspect that if you saw the dozens of ("what's my coin worth?") emails that I do each week, you might feel differently. It's amazing and disturbing, how little, so many people who buy coins, know so little about them. And that includes many laughable counterfeits. It can be difficult for knowledgeable collectors to remember back to the days when they knew virtually nothing about coins. And who, therefore, have little or no empathy for the uninformed.

[comicdonna]

I happen to have those rounds produced by Mr. Carr above.

 

Do you really need the word 'COPY' on those to put your mind at ease? The designs are surrounded by another rim that says .999 fine, which surely doesn't equal to the original's .900 fineness.

 

Some of you must like to grind and sharpen your axes over everything, and a few others just come across as miserable, petty and insufferable.

 

Whatever, think I'll just enjoy my purchases.

 

Unless I'm confusing you with another poster - and if I am, I apologize - I've seen you post some very nice, wholesome coins on the PCGS forum. That tells me you're far more knowledgeable about coins than the type of buyer that prevents some of us from having our minds at ease.

 

I suspect that if you saw the dozens of ("what's my coin worth?") emails that I do each week, you might feel differently. It's amazing how little, so many people know about coins, including counterfeits. It can be difficult for knowledgeable collectors to remember back to the days when they knew virtually nothing about coins. And who, therefore, have little or no empathy for the uninformed.

That's why there's laws to protect hobbyists.

[physics-fan3.14]

I happen to have those rounds produced by Mr. Carr above.

 

Do you really need the word 'COPY' on those to put your mind at ease? The designs are surrounded by another rim that says .999 fine, which surely doesn't equal to the original's .900 fineness.

 

Some of you must like to grind and sharpen your axes over everything, and a few others just come across as miserable, petty and insufferable.

 

Whatever, think I'll just enjoy my purchases.

 

Unless I'm confusing you with another poster - and if I am, I apologize - I've seen you post some very nice, wholesome coins on the PCGS forum. That tells me you're far more knowledgeable about coins than the type of buyer that prevents some of us from having our minds at ease.

 

I suspect that if you saw the dozens of ("what's my coin worth?") emails that I do each week, you might feel differently. It's amazing how little, so many people know about coins, including counterfeits. It can be difficult for knowledgeable collectors to remember back to the days when they knew virtually nothing about coins. And who, therefore, have little or no empathy for the uninformed.

That's why there's laws to protect hobbyists.

 

And that's why certain forum posters are so adamant that other posters are in violation of those laws, and need to rectify themselves immediately.

 

It's also the reason we can't understand why those posters (really, just the one poster) is so adamant about flagrantly defying the law. Why does he insist on producing these things contrary to every reasonable interpretation of the law?

[Hard Times]

I happen to have those rounds produced by Mr. Carr above.

 

Do you really need the word 'COPY' on those to put your mind at ease? The designs are surrounded by another rim that says .999 fine, which surely doesn't equal to the original's .900 fineness.

 

Some of you must like to grind and sharpen your axes over everything, and a few others just come across as miserable, petty and insufferable.

 

Whatever, think I'll just enjoy my purchases.

 

My mind is neither at ease nor in turmoil about the issue. Just contributing to the discussion and pointing out the discrepancies in Mr. Carr's comments. Jest sayin'

 

Last time I looked, we are debating/dsicussing the HPA and its conditions over the likeness of US coins. So just because some disagree with you, it does not mean they are being 'miserable, petty and insufferable' (Yikes). Seems to me these are fallback words from someone who does not have a valid contribution to this discussion. Just sayin'

 

Double Yikes

 

 

[Hard Times]

Nevermind. Post deleted. Want to keep it somewhat civil......

 

Best, HT

[physics-fan3.14]

Nevermind. Post deleted. Want to keep it somewhat civil......

 

Best, HT

 

Believe me, HT, I've got a whole lot of words that I want to say. The Scotch is telling me go, but I'm really trying hard to say no.

[Hard Times]

Nevermind. Post deleted. Want to keep it somewhat civil......

 

Best, HT

 

Believe me, HT, I've got a whole lot of words that I want to say. The Scotch is telling me go, but I'm really trying hard to say no.

 

Me? it was the white wine talking, but it was French, from Burgundy (a Chablis).....

 

Best, HT

[Zoins]

I suspect that if you saw the dozens of ("what's my coin worth?") emails that I do each week, you might feel differently. It's amazing and disturbing, how little, so many people who buy coins, know so little about them. And that includes many laughable counterfeits. It can be difficult for knowledgeable collectors to remember back to the days when they knew virtually nothing about coins. And who, therefore, have little or no empathy for the uninformed.

 

Did any of the people that ask you about their coins ask about Dan's coins? While we've all heard stories of how people have been ripped off by coins, I haven't heard a single one for Dan's coins yet. As mentioned, Dan's coins generally do well on the secondary market so many collectors may be better off with Dan's coins. So while I understand the general concern, the concern doesn't seem to map to the reality that I've seen.

 

And, to be honest, I feel the collector without a lot of coin background would be better off buying Dan's coins directly and having them rise in the secondary market than buying slabbed/unslabbed classic coins where knowing about overgrading, retail vs. wholesale and widgets is very important. There are many stories of collectors having bad dealings with in coins when they are not knowledgable and paying a lot of "tuition." I wish it weren't true, but after learning about the industry on these forums and elsewhere, I'm very careful about which classic coins I buy due to the wholesale vs retail difference and the need to understanding grading for each series. I generally feel much more confident about buying one of Dan's coins than a classic coin that I haven't studied. With a general new issue from Dan, the price will often go up on the secondary market. With a general classic coin, who knows what will happen, you may even get ripped.

 

So while the strawman arguments against Dan's coins seem theoretical and not reflected in reality, the losses from buying classic coins often seem real from the stories from many collectors paying tuition.

[coinman_23885]

Did any of the people that ask you about their coins ask about Dan's coins? While we've all heard stories of how people have been ripped off by coins, I haven't heard a single one for Dan's coins yet. As mentioned, Dan's coins generally do well on the secondary market so many collectors may be better off with Dan's coins. So while I understand the general concern, the concern doesn't seem to map to the reality that I've seen.

 

About a month or month and a half ago, Michael Fahey (senior authenticator of ANACS and columnist) wrote in Coin World that he had entertained several calls from people inquiring as to the veracity of Dan Carr's pieces. The piece then details how one poster believed his coin to be a very rare date. The article did not say anything about how much the inquirer paid, but it is irrelevant IMHO. The issue is that multiple people have apparently confused his coins with the real McCoy. This is why we have the HPA and the counterfeiting statutes.

 

I wrote both ANACS and Coin World. The chief editor of Coin World confirmed that my message inquiring for additional details was forwarded to Mr. Fahey but further stated that whether Fahey would respond or not was also within ANACS's discretion. Mr. Fahey and ANACS have not responded to my request for information.

[Zoins]

Did any of the people that ask you about their coins ask about Dan's coins? While we've all heard stories of how people have been ripped off by coins, I haven't heard a single one for Dan's coins yet. As mentioned, Dan's coins generally do well on the secondary market so many collectors may be better off with Dan's coins. So while I understand the general concern, the concern doesn't seem to map to the reality that I've seen.

 

About a month or month and a half ago, Michael Fahey (senior authenticator of ANACS and columnist) wrote in Coin World that he had entertained several calls from people inquiring as to the veracity of Dan Carr's piece. The piece then details how one poster believed his coin to be a very rare date. The article did not say anything about how much the inquirer paid, but it is irrelevant IMHO. The issue is that multiple people have apparently confused his coins with the real McCoy. This is why we have the HPA and the counterfeiting statutes.

 

To me, that by itself doesn't indicate that much because the collector could have just used Google to learn about the piece and it's unknown if the person was ripped off. The story would have more influence if the person was ripped off, which does happen for many classic coins.

 

I'm a bit disillusioned by the coin collecting hobby because there often seems to be acceptance of real dollar loss "tuition" on US Mint classic coins while so much attention is spent on areas with no stories of any actual losses like Dan's overstrikes. I'm much more careful about buying a US Mint classic coin than one of Dan's overstrikes. For me, Dan's pieces are a nice and relaxing break where you don't need to worry about losing money as much as on a US Mint classic coin.

[coinman_23885]

As to your other post:

 

So while the strawman arguments against Dan's coins seem theoretical and not reflected in reality, the losses from buying classic coins often seem real from the stories from many collectors paying tuition.

 

Please clearly point to the strawman arguments against Carr's pieces? My arguments are not theoretical and are based on (1) a first hand account from a senior ANACS authenticator and Coin World columnist who has had multiple inquiries from people confused by Carr's works and (2) actual court opinions. I am not shooting from the hip here - I identified every major argument that Carr has propounded in the last 4-5 threads where this topic has been discussed and pulled up actual case law from Lexis Nexis and West Law. You can argue all you want that any one single court decision was wrong; however, I find more than ample authority against Carr's position and no authority to support him.

 

There are many here that argue that there is no one that does exactly what he does (allegedly); however, this misunderstands the nature of federal court decisions. Federal appeals courts answer questions like:

 

Question: Does overstriking over existing genuine coinage remove the coin from the purview of the counterfeiting statute?

Federal Appeals Court Decision: No.

 

Question: Must a coin, note, or other obligation be current legal tender or purport to be issued in order to be considered a counterfeit?

Federal Appeals Court Decision: No.

 

Question: Is changing a date enough to remove a coin from the counterfeiting statutes or HPA?

Federal Appeals Court Decisions: No.

FTC decision (HPA): No.

 

Question: Is fraudulent intent required for a conviction under 18 U.S.C. 485 for producing coins in violation of that statute:

Federal Appeals Court Decisions: No (not for producing although intent required for separate uttering offenses)

Federal District Court Decisions: Upholding jury verdict, finding that intent is not required for production offense.

 

All of these questions have been squarely presented and addressed by federal appeals courts, and when read together, the decisions lead to an obvious conclusion. I invite you and all of my critics to actually pull the cases and read them for yourselves.

 

[Zoins]

As to your other post:

 

So while the strawman arguments against Dan's coins seem theoretical and not reflected in reality, the losses from buying classic coins often seem real from the stories from many collectors paying tuition.

 

Please clearly point to the strawman arguments against Carr's pieces?

 

I'm talking specifically about scenarios where collectors lose money. I still haven't heard of a single person being fooled into losing money on one of Dan's pieces. No need to expand the scope to areas I'm not referring to

 

We've already discussed the other areas and, due to the differences in interpretation, going to court or filing a complaint are ways to address your concerns.

[MJ]

You have some of the most knowledgeable and well heeled collectors that collect Carr's products. You would be amazed at the roster. Guys with seven figure single coins in their collections. Guys that have forgot more then most of us will ever know.

 

You have guys that enjoy collecting these fantasy pieces right along with their regular US coin discipline because it's fun and a diversion and it keeps things interesting and fresh.

 

You have entry level collectors who have a higher percentage of their collection in Carr pieces that will one day probably enter into the more mainstream US coin market in earnest.

 

All of these collectors have one thing in common. They thoroughly enjoy adding Carr pieces to their holdings. His pieces tend to make you smile. This is GREAT for the hobby. His releases are highly antipated and sell out each and everytime. They do extremely well in the secondary market which bodes well as mores collectors are added. Dan Carr has done more good for this hobby the past ten years then just about anybody I know. His followers come from all walks of life and range from newbies to the one percenters.

 

You all enjoy your cocktails and lawbooks and I'll try my best to enjoy this hobby my way. I love tokens, medals, World coins, US Coins and Carr Fantasy pieces thank you very much.

 

mark

[coinman_23885]

You have some of the most knowledgeable and well heeled collectors that collect Carr's products. You would be amazed at the roster. Guys with seven figure single coins in their collections. Guys that have forgot more then most of us will ever know.

 

You have guys that enjoy collecting these fantasy pieces right along with their regular US coin discipline because it's fun and a diversion and it keeps things interesting and fresh.

 

You have entry level collectors who have a higher percentage of their collection in Carr pieces that will one day probably enter into the more mainstream US coin market in earnest.

 

All of these collectors have one thing in common. They thoroughly enjoy adding Carr pieces to their holdings. His pieces tend to make you smile. This is GREAT for the hobby. His releases are highly antipated and sell out each and everytime. They do extremely well in the secondary market which bodes well as mores collectors are added. Dan Carr has done more good for this hobby the past ten years then just about anybody I know. His followers come from all walks of life and range from newbies to the one percenters.

 

You all enjoy your cocktails and lawbooks and I'll try my best to enjoy this hobby my way. I love tokens, medals, World coins, US Coins and Carr Fantasy pieces thank you very much.

 

mark

 

To be clear, I never said it was illegal or stupid to collect his pieces. Plenty of knowledgeable collectors enjoy their contemporary counterfeit bust coins, electrotypes, Omega gold coins, and Henning nickels. The issue is with the producer and not the collectors of the items in question.

[Hard Times]

You have some of the most knowledgeable and well heeled collectors that collect Carr's products. You would be amazed at the roster. Guys with seven figure single coins in their collections. Guys that have forgot more then most of us will ever know.

 

You have guys that enjoy collecting these fantasy pieces right along with their regular US coin discipline because it's fun and a diversion and it keeps things interesting and fresh.

 

You have entry level collectors who have a higher percentage of their collection in Carr pieces that will one day probably enter into the more mainstream US coin market in earnest.

 

All of these collectors have one thing in common. They thoroughly enjoy adding Carr pieces to their holdings. His pieces tend to make you smile. This is GREAT for the hobby. His releases are highly antipated and sell out each and everytime. They do extremely well in the secondary market which bodes well as mores collectors are added. Dan Carr has done more good for this hobby the past ten years then just about anybody I know. His followers come from all walks of life and range from newbies to the one percenters.

 

You all enjoy your cocktails and lawbooks and I'll try my best to enjoy this hobby my way. I love tokens, medals, World coins, US Coins and Carr Fantasy pieces thank you very much.

 

mark

 

To be clear, I never said it was illegal or stupid to collect his pieces. Plenty of knowledgeable collectors enjoy their contemporary counterfeit bust coins, electrotypes, Omega gold coins, and Henning nickels. The issue is with the producer and not the collectors of the items in question.

 

I would point out one more thing. I don't think any of us disagree that Carr's pieces are gorgeous and works of art and I see why any appreciative numismatist would enjoy collecting them irrespective of the value of their collection. But the issue being discussed is whether said fantasy pieces are violating the HPA or not. That is a completely different subject than whether it is fun to own them or not.

 

 

Best, HT

[nk1nk]

Nevermind. Post deleted. Want to keep it somewhat civil......

 

Best, HT

 

Believe me, HT, I've got a whole lot of words that I want to say. The Scotch is telling me go, but I'm really trying hard to say no.

 

Me? it was the white wine talking, but it was French, from Burgundy (a Chablis).....

 

Best, HT

 

[mark]

You have some of the most knowledgeable and well heeled collectors that collect Carr's products. You would be amazed at the roster. Guys with seven figure single coins in their collections. Guys that have forgot more then most of us will ever know.

 

You have guys that enjoy collecting these fantasy pieces right along with their regular US coin discipline because it's fun and a diversion and it keeps things interesting and fresh.

 

You have entry level collectors who have a higher percentage of their collection in Carr pieces that will one day probably enter into the more mainstream US coin market in earnest.

 

All of these collectors have one thing in common. They thoroughly enjoy adding Carr pieces to their holdings. His pieces tend to make you smile. This is GREAT for the hobby. His releases are highly antipated and sell out each and everytime. They do extremely well in the secondary market which bodes well as mores collectors are added. Dan Carr has done more good for this hobby the past ten years then just about anybody I know. His followers come from all walks of life and range from newbies to the one percenters.

 

You all enjoy your cocktails and lawbooks and I'll try my best to enjoy this hobby my way. I love tokens, medals, World coins, US Coins and Carr Fantasy pieces thank you very much.

 

mark

 

Mark:

 

Would you enjoy your Carr "coins" any less if they had the word "copy" on them?

 

Mark

 

PS: It really does seem odd addressing a post to "Mark" and then signing it "Mark." Where I grew up, "Mark" was an uncommon name. But here we have at least 3 of us posting...

[MarkFeld]

You have some of the most knowledgeable and well heeled collectors that collect Carr's products. You would be amazed at the roster. Guys with seven figure single coins in their collections. Guys that have forgot more then most of us will ever know.

 

You have guys that enjoy collecting these fantasy pieces right along with their regular US coin discipline because it's fun and a diversion and it keeps things interesting and fresh.

 

You have entry level collectors who have a higher percentage of their collection in Carr pieces that will one day probably enter into the more mainstream US coin market in earnest.

 

All of these collectors have one thing in common. They thoroughly enjoy adding Carr pieces to their holdings. His pieces tend to make you smile. This is GREAT for the hobby. His releases are highly antipated and sell out each and everytime. They do extremely well in the secondary market which bodes well as mores collectors are added. Dan Carr has done more good for this hobby the past ten years then just about anybody I know. His followers come from all walks of life and range from newbies to the one percenters.

 

You all enjoy your cocktails and lawbooks and I'll try my best to enjoy this hobby my way. I love tokens, medals, World coins, US Coins and Carr Fantasy pieces thank you very much.

 

mark

 

Mark:

 

Would you enjoy your Carr "coins" any less if they had the word "copy" on them?

 

Mark

 

PS: It really does seem odd addressing a post to "Mark" and then signing it "Mark." Where I grew up, "Mark" was an uncommon name. But here we have at least 3 of us posting...

 

Mark, I think Mark would enjoy them less, without the word copy on them. But let's see what Mark says. OK, Mark?

 

Mark

[MarkFeld]

I suspect that if you saw the dozens of ("what's my coin worth?") emails that I do each week, you might feel differently. It's amazing and disturbing, how little, so many people who buy coins, know so little about them. And that includes many laughable counterfeits. It can be difficult for knowledgeable collectors to remember back to the days when they knew virtually nothing about coins. And who, therefore, have little or no empathy for the uninformed.

 

Did any of the people that ask you about their coins ask about Dan's coins? While we've all heard stories of how people have been ripped off by coins, I haven't heard a single one for Dan's coins yet. As mentioned, Dan's coins generally do well on the secondary market so many collectors may be better off with Dan's coins. So while I understand the general concern, the concern doesn't seem to map to the reality that I've seen.

 

And, to be honest, I feel the collector without a lot of coin background would be better off buying Dan's coins directly and having them rise in the secondary market than buying slabbed/unslabbed classic coins where knowing about overgrading, retail vs. wholesale and widgets is very important. There are many stories of collectors having bad dealings with in coins when they are not knowledgable and paying a lot of "tuition." I wish it weren't true, but after learning about the industry on these forums and elsewhere, I'm very careful about which classic coins I buy due to the wholesale vs retail difference and the need to understanding grading for each series. I generally feel much more confident about buying one of Dan's coins than a classic coin that I haven't studied. With a general new issue from Dan, the price will often go up on the secondary market. With a general classic coin, who knows what will happen, you may even get ripped.

 

So while the strawman arguments against Dan's coins seem theoretical and not reflected in reality, the losses from buying classic coins often seem real from the stories from many collectors paying tuition.

 

None of the emails have mentioned Carr coins, as best I recall. But as noted elsewhere in this thread, others have received inquiries about them. And I'm confident that in time, I will, too.

 

One of the points of my post was to try to remind the informed collectors, how many uninformed buyers there are out there. And that even if long ago, at one time, each of us was equally uninformed.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I suspect that if you saw the dozens of ("what's my coin worth?") emails that I do each week, you might feel differently. It's amazing and disturbing, how little, so many people who buy coins, know so little about them. And that includes many laughable counterfeits. It can be difficult for knowledgeable collectors to remember back to the days when they knew virtually nothing about coins. And who, therefore, have little or no empathy for the uninformed.

 

Did any of the people that ask you about their coins ask about Dan's coins? While we've all heard stories of how people have been ripped off by coins, I haven't heard a single one for Dan's coins yet. As mentioned, Dan's coins generally do well on the secondary market so many collectors may be better off with Dan's coins. So while I understand the general concern, the concern doesn't seem to map to the reality that I've seen.

 

And, to be honest, I feel the collector without a lot of coin background would be better off buying Dan's coins directly and having them rise in the secondary market than buying slabbed/unslabbed classic coins where knowing about overgrading, retail vs. wholesale and widgets is very important. There are many stories of collectors having bad dealings with in coins when they are not knowledgable and paying a lot of "tuition." I wish it weren't true, but after learning about the industry on these forums and elsewhere, I'm very careful about which classic coins I buy due to the wholesale vs retail difference and the need to understanding grading for each series. I generally feel much more confident about buying one of Dan's coins than a classic coin that I haven't studied. With a general new issue from Dan, the price will often go up on the secondary market. With a general classic coin, who knows what will happen, you may even get ripped.

 

So while the strawman arguments against Dan's coins seem theoretical and not reflected in reality, the losses from buying classic coins often seem real from the stories from many collectors paying tuition.

 

None of the emails have mentioned Carr coins, as best I recall. But as noted elsewhere in this thread, others have received inquiries about them. And I'm confident that in time, I will, too.

 

One of the points of my post was to try to remind the informed collectors, how many uninformed buyers there are out there. And that even if long ago, at one time, each of us was equally uninformed.

 

In the capacity of fielding emails from others concerning coins that you are addressing, I have a question.

 

If, in time, your prediction comes about, that you receive an inquiry concerning a Moonlight Mint piece, what would you reply?

 

Keep in mind that the following statements are on the Moonlight Mint website:

 

"1964-D" Morgan Silver Dollar fantasy issue, High-Grade Finish"

 

"This modern fantasy is LEGAL and is not required to carry a "COPY" stamp for the following reasons:

 

1)These are not copies of Morgan silver dollars-they are privately over-struck on GENUINE government-issue silver dollars that were originally minted from 1878-1921.

2)According to the U.S. Treasury,no 1964 dollars were ever minted-so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist.

3)Defacing of US coins is legal so long as the defacement isn't for fraudulent purposes.

 

By purchasing one or more of these coins, the buyer agrees to provided full disclosure of their origin when reselling them.Failure to provide potential buyers with complete and accurate information when offering these coins could result in criminal and/or civil fraud charges. In other words, don't even think about trying to sell these to unaware buyers as as original 1964-D Morgan silver dollars!"

 

Note that this was a random choice of listing, and selecting the particular date/type is not for any nefarious or tricky reason. All the listings have some format of the wording, some don't.