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Video- NGC Coin Order Walkthrough at the ANA

Started by Cmorgan,

41 posts in this topic

Cmorgan

Cmorgan

Posted
Posted

If you haven't seen it already, I'd like to share a video I made with Hubert Walker and NGC at the ANA World's Fair of Money.

 

The video shows the entire process of a show submission - from handing it over at the counter to the coins being graded to me sitting down with Mark and going over the coins and the grades.

 

Oh yeah, it's shot and uploaded in 4K- so you can view it on your big screen to see it in all its glory.

 

 

 

 

 

Charles

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted

Very cool video. It's a pity most of it was gold, and a couple Morgans. Interesting hearing the rationale for the grades, but a major snoozer on the actual type of material graded.

 

(shrug)

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
Very cool video. It's a pity most of it was gold, and a couple Morgans. Interesting hearing the rationale for the grades, but a major snoozer on the actual type of material graded.

 

(shrug)

 

I wouldn't consider a 1907 HR Saint to be a boring coin at all.

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USAuPzlBxBob

USAuPzlBxBob

Posted
Posted

The way they flip those coins around in their fingers gives me the creeps. No face masks, laying the coins down on those felt pads that look like they could benefit from some vacuuming, and no cleanroom environment before the sonic sealing.

 

I still have one coin in an NGC old holder, which keeps me from submitting it because it will get a new holder, but it has a "fiber," or something, and NGC would probably charge me less because they would agree that they sealed the "fiber" in the holder, when they graded it.

 

Still, a great wealth of knowledge during the discussion.

 

When you get your coins back at these conventions, do you get a discussion as to why the grades came in the way they did? If yes, that alone would make it highly attractive as a fringe benefit in addition to the immediacy of the grading service and slabbing encapsulation.

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted
Very cool video. It's a pity most of it was gold, and a couple Morgans. Interesting hearing the rationale for the grades, but a major snoozer on the actual type of material graded.

 

(shrug)

 

I wouldn't consider a 1907 HR Saint to be a boring coin at all.

 

Yes, especially a cleaned one. Very exciting indeed. lol

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thebeav

thebeav

Posted
Posted

I was a little surprised at the subjectivity of the PL designation. I would have thought that there would be something like an 'eye chart'.....You must be able to read line 3 off of the coins field, from a distance of 3 inches etc,etc.....

Just thought it would be more scientific.

Neat video !

 

Paul

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
..,,,

 

When you get your coins back at these conventions, do you get a discussion as to why the grades came in the way they did? If yes, that alone would make it highly attractive as a fringe benefit in addition to the immediacy of the grading service and slabbing encapsulation.

 

In the vast majority of cases, no. I have, however, heard of very rare instances in which a submitter had a question about the results and was able to get an explanation.

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Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
Posted

Thanks, has PCGS done one of these on the grading process? My understanding is a different group of graders is used for the walkthroughs and expresses than for lesser value submissions, not sure if that is correct.

 

Do you have an invoice list of the walkthrough? I almost never have the sound on with internet use.

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted
I was a little surprised at the subjectivity of the PL designation. I would have thought that there would be something like an 'eye chart'.....You must be able to read line 3 off of the coins field, from a distance of 3 inches etc,etc.....

Just thought it would be more scientific.

Neat video !

 

Paul

 

The 'finger wave' looking at the reflection is still a good way to see reflectivity in the fields.

 

...snapping the coins into the insert prongs always gives me the willies, maybe that's why it was left out. ;) Willie free for Woody

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
Posted

Very interesting video!

 

A few questions (either for Mark, or someone else maybe), and a couple observations:

 

1. How does "show grading" differ from grading in the permanent office? It seems like the setup is fairly similar, but are there any unique challenges to show grading?

 

2. It seemed like Scott was spending a lot of time on each coin. We've always heard that they spend "a few seconds" grading each coin. Was he taking longer because these coins were interesting, or because he was being video'd, or do graders actually take longer than "a few seconds"?

 

3. Every coin that was shown being graded had some sort of magnification used. I noticed Scott had a loupe (what power does he use? 10x?) and he had a larger magnifier (I'm assuming 3x?) We've always heard that graders primarily use "naked eye," and don't use magnification often. Is there something that triggers using magnification, in your experience? What sort of situations will you pull out a magnifier, and when would you pull out a loupe?

 

4. In the stacks of holders, I noticed some with 3 prongs. What coins get 3 pronged holders?

 

5. Salzberg does not seem to be a fan of prooflikes. Oh well, its a free country and he can be wrong if he wants to ;)

 

6. Sweet vindication! Mark Salzberg, on video, saying a fingerprint precludes a 66 grade.

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted
Very interesting video!

 

A few questions (either for Mark, or someone else maybe), and a couple observations:

4. In the stacks of holders, I noticed some with 3 prongs. What coins get 3 pronged holders?

 

I know $2.50 and $5 Indian golds are holdered in 3-prong holders so that the mint-mark isn't covered by the prong. There may be others also.

 

NGC_3prongs_zpssgyf18hw.jpg

 

5. Salzberg does not seem to be a fan of prooflikes. Oh well, its a free country and he can be wrong if he wants to ;)

 

Nothing he said was false really. It is true that a great many PL coins are ugly, and show abrasions in unattractive ways.

 

6. Sweet vindication! Mark Salzberg, on video, saying a fingerprint precludes a 66 grade.

 

Well, I thought the "JasonPoe" grading system has always said that a finger print precludes an MS65 grade. I guess you almost agree. ;)

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EleMint Man

EleMint Man

Posted
Posted

Informative video, I enjoyed it. I agree the handling of the gold coins is scary! No cotton gloves and if he drops the coin will it bounce off the felt (?) counter and land on the floor undamaged without finger prints? Also if the grader does accidentally put their finger(s) on the fields and or reliefs, is anything done like dipping the coin? I noticed the 1901 S MS65+ PL Morgan has a NGC pop of 1 and I cannot find a value for a MS66 designation or another MS65+ for this series anywhere. Seems the sky could be the limit on the value of one if it exists. This video brings up as many questions as it does answers IMHO.

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/us/morgan-dollars-1878-1921-pscid-49/1901-s-s1-mspl-65-price-history-coinid-17277

 

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/7277

 

 

...

 

 

 

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Raisethis2

Raisethis2

Posted
Posted

I'd like to think that if a coin should accidentally be finger marked (or worse, dropped on the floor) that in a permanent grading room there'd be a jar of acetone available. I know at my house I just wipe the coin on my shirt, but I'm not the professional.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:)

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted
Informative video, I enjoyed it. I agree the handling of the gold coins is scary! No cotton gloves and if he drops the coin will it bounce off the felt (?) counter and land on the floor undamaged without finger prints?

 

Anyone who has ever handled many coins knows that you are much more coordinated at handling them without gloves than with gloves. I would never want graders to wear cotton gloves to grade coins -- that's a disaster waiting to happen.

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bstrauss3

bstrauss3

Posted
Posted
Very interesting video!

 

 

2. It seemed like Scott was spending a lot of time on each coin. We've always heard that they spend "a few seconds" grading each coin. Was he taking longer because these coins were interesting, or because he was being video'd, or do graders actually take longer than "a few seconds"?

 

 

 

I actually think we were seeing the finalize pass. If you watch closely the grader doesn't note a grade on each flip, nor does he enter data each time. For the regular passes that data should not be available to the grader.

 

I also suspect that show submissions tend to be higher value and so the time is adjusted accordingly (the 10s per coin AVERAGE includes 100s of thousands of ASEs that probably get 5s each). And of course the presence of the camera causes the "observer effect".

 

 

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

I tried this for ordering a medium sausage pizza, but it has not arrived as yet. Maybe I did not have the correct vinyl flip....?

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Scott_Schechter

Scott_Schechter

Posted
  • Administrator
Posted

In response to various comments and in answer to your questions.....

 

I still have one coin in an NGC old holder, which keeps me from submitting it because it will get a new holder, but it has a "fiber," or something, and NGC would probably charge me less because they would agree that they sealed the "fiber" in the holder, when they graded it.

 

When you get your coins back at these conventions, do you get a discussion as to why the grades came in the way they did? If yes, that alone would make it highly attractive as a fringe benefit in addition to the immediacy of the grading service and slabbing encapsulation.

If you have a coin with a debris in the holder, of course, we'll reholder it for free. Contact NGC customer service tomorrow for submission instructions.

 

Normally there is no face-to-face discussion regarding your grading results. At major conventions, we do occasionally offer grader consultations. When offered, you can sit down with a grader and discuss your coins.

 

I was a little surprised at the subjectivity of the PL designation. I would have thought that there would be something like an 'eye chart'.....You must be able to read line 3 off of the coins field, from a distance of 3 inches etc,etc..... Just thought it would be more scientific.

I think I understand the point you're making. Keep in mind that graders at NGC look at over 10,000 coins each month. Over time, they develop a very high degree of visual acuity. While measuring devices of the type you suggest may add to accuracy initially or during training, once graders have significant experience in a particular area, like PL dollars, heuristic devices of this type aren't necessary. They just won't change the outcome appreciably.

 

1. How does "show grading" differ from grading in the permanent office? It seems like the setup is fairly similar, but are there any unique challenges to show grading?

 

2. It seemed like Scott was spending a lot of time on each coin. We've always heard that they spend "a few seconds" grading each coin. Was he taking longer because these coins were interesting, or because he was being video'd, or do graders actually take longer than "a few seconds"?

 

3. Every coin that was shown being graded had some sort of magnification used. I noticed Scott had a loupe (what power does he use? 10x?) and he had a larger magnifier (I'm assuming 3x?) We've always heard that graders primarily use "naked eye," and don't use magnification often. Is there something that triggers using magnification, in your experience? What sort of situations will you pull out a magnifier, and when would you pull out a loupe?

 

4. In the stacks of holders, I noticed some with 3 prongs. What coins get 3 pronged holders?

1. There are some minor differences between the office setup and show grading, but they aren't very meaningful. For example, in the office, coins are packaged in boxes for each submission. There aren't any banded bundles of coins.

 

The biggest challenge is getting acclimated quickly to a new environment. Our lighting conditions are tightly controlled in the office. We see a number of important coins at shows, and all graders need to feel comfortable in the grading room to perform optimally.

 

2. Coins aren't graded in a few seconds. It takes longer than that. But some aspects of the timing aren't represented verily in the video. The filming involved an establishing shot, a point-of-view shot and an across the table shot. So I actually graded the same group of coins a couple of times to accommodate the various angles.

 

Regarding timing, we take as long as we need to be accurate and to make sure that we're not missing anything. Coin types matter. Certainly Becthler coinage takes longer to grade than Morgan dollars and Saints.

 

3. I use a 5x square magnifier on all small coins, quarter eagles and smaller. Always. I use a 9x triplet for authentication, e.g. to look at dates and mintmarks. I use the same 9x loupe whenever I suspect damage, repair or alteration. Different graders have different preferences and tendencies. If I'm grading uncirculated common date dollars, I might not use any magnification until I see something like a spot removal or an area of a coin's surface that beckons for a closer look.

 

4. 3-prongs are primarily for Indian gold. Because the coin has no rim, the mintmark location would be obscured by the prong. As an aside, we elected to use four prongs because extensive testing showed that coins in four-prong holders were less likely to rotate when they were subjected to vibration, like they might experience during shipping.

 

I agree the handling of the gold coins is scary! No cotton gloves and if he drops the coin will it bounce off the felt (?) counter and land on the floor undamaged without finger prints? Also if the grader does accidentally put their finger(s) on the fields and or reliefs, is anything done like dipping the coin?

A lot of discussion about gloves, etc. I'll address this quickly here.

 

First, if a coin is dropped whether a person is wearing gloves or not, the net effect is the same. Fortunately, the jewelers pads we use don't allow a coin to bounce. We're pretty safe there.

 

Second, a person is much less likely to drop a coin while bare-handed. The coin is just easier to control, and this is important. To grade properly, a grader needs to rotate and roll a coin under the light. This would be difficult to do wearing gloves. Coins need to be taken out of flips and put back in. Again, harder to do wearing gloves.

 

Third, believe it or not, there is a tactile component to grading. For example, some counterfeit coins have sharper reeding. The don't feel right in hand, and this is an important cue to graders.

 

Last, over the years, I've removed about one million coins from flips, and then put over one million coins back into flips. Those are real numbers. You get pretty good it at it. You just learn how to keep your fingers away from the obverse and reverse sides. Learning how to handle coins in this way is probably the most fundamental skill collectors, dealers and graders need to learn, and it can be mastered.

 

No one is perfect, though. If a coin does get touched accidentally, we contact the submitter, tell them about the issue and offer free NCS conservation. It doesn't happen very often, but there is a suitable and immediate remedy.

 

I tried this for ordering a medium sausage pizza, but it has not arrived as yet. Maybe I did not have the correct vinyl flip....?

You did it just right. They delivered your pizza to the grading room just as we finished up for the day.

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