nk1nk Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Ok I'm sure this won't end well but I am curious. ATS a thread was started asking if anybody had a Dcarr peace dollar slabbed by PCGS. It sounds like they will now grade these. My question is will NGC also slab these currently or in the near future? Does anyone on these boards have one in PCGS plastic? Nick Here's the link ATS for those interested. https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=966937&enterthread=y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 NGC and PCGS don't at the moment. I guess the question was posed has anyone tried on the 64-D since they do appear in a publication that PCGS recognizes. I'm with Martin Louges ( Cardinal ). I think it would be great if they did but dont care if they don't mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinman_23885 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 This is interesting. I thought only ANACS and maybe ICG slabbed them. If PCGS does slab them, I wonder how recently they implemented this policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physics-fan3.14 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Ugh. I wish this topic and person and his counterfeits would just go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
braddick Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Ugh. I wish this topic and person and his counterfeits would just go away. I feel your pain. I used to think the same thing whenever the topic of exonumia came up. I then learned to appreciate medals and soon embraced discussion. It's all your personal perception. How you choose to handle the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nk1nk Posted August 1, 2016 Author Share Posted August 1, 2016 Ugh. I wish this topic and person and his counterfeits would just go away. , I wish Susan B Anthony dollars and the entire presidential dollar series would go away! As mentioned across the street it's an upstream swim, you'll soon tire of it. I can imagine PCGS stabbing these is just another swift current for the Dcarr haters to stroke through. I commend PCGS for making the change, I hope NGC follows in their footsteps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptHenway Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Ok I'm sure this won't end well but I am curious. ATS a thread was started asking if anybody had a Dcarr peace dollar slabbed by PCGS. It sounds like they will now grade these. My question is will NGC also slab these currently or in the near future? Does anyone on these boards have one in PCGS plastic? Nick Here's the link ATS for those interested. https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=966937&enterthread=y I would assume that the post mint damage would disqualify them from slabbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Unless the word "Copy" appears on the piece, it violates both the Hobby Protection Act and counterfeiting law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicdonna Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Unless the word "Copy" appears on the piece, it violates both the Hobby Protection Act and counterfeiting law. As it should be. I believe Dcarr discloses but, when these "coins" get in the wrong hands, many undereducated buyers will get hosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afterword Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I will not waste my time on this topic anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodenJefferson Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 ...is this the monthly D.Carr thread where the topic is foisted upon us to keep the fuel fed to the fires so we don't forget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nk1nk Posted August 1, 2016 Author Share Posted August 1, 2016 ...is this the monthly D.Carr thread where the topic is foisted upon us to keep the fuel fed to the fires so we don't forget? No. I think it's actually pretty relevant to both sides of the argument here. I think it's pretty telling that PCGS is grading these pieces. I find it amusing the haters are now sick of the topic or no longer discussing it. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I highly doubt PCGS would touch these if they felt in any way they were counterfeit. That to me is worth a discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afterword Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 "I find it amusing the haters are now sick of the topic or no longer discussing it." To clarify, I am not a dcarr hater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 With due respect to those with opposite opinions, I find various products of Dan Carr's Moonlight Mint to be highly desirable, my personal favorite is his fantasy token 1816 capped bust half, sold about five or six years ago. I'd like to hear from whoever wishes to dispose of one. As for the possibility of an unsuspecting wealthy novice collector being scammed, has there ever been a single example of that happening? Anyone with a reference such as a Redbook, or access to on-line information could hardly be victimized. Were any such scam to occur, probably it would make huge headlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 "Desirability" is not an issue - it is legality. Do Mr. Carr's "items" comply with the law or not. A very simple resolution is obvious. Mr. Carr can submit his "items" to review by the Federal Trade Commission and obtain a letter from them stating that his "items" comply with the law. Publication of the letter of compliance would end all debate. [PS: I don't know that collectors "hate" or "dislike" Mr. Carr as a person. Presumably, such comments are ordinary hyperbole.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny9434 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 "I find it amusing the haters are now sick of the topic or no longer discussing it." To clarify, I am not a dcarr hater. nor am i. its just an opinion thus everyone has one at this point. just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 ...is this the monthly D.Carr thread where the topic is foisted upon us to keep the fuel fed to the fires so we don't forget? No. I think it's actually pretty relevant to both sides of the argument here. I think it's pretty telling that PCGS is grading these pieces. I find it amusing the haters are now sick of the topic or no longer discussing it. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I highly doubt PCGS would touch these if they felt in any way they were counterfeit. That to me is worth a discussion. PCGS is not grading these pieces...as is duly noted in the thread ATS. PCGS does grade many other pieces from the Krause Unusual World Coins book, so the argument is that there is no reason why they wouldn't grade the DCarr pieces also. No DCarr pieces have been graded/slabbed by PCGS yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 The moment DCarr shows up here, I predict at least a 70 post thread... Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinman_23885 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) I find it amusing the haters are now sick of the topic or no longer discussing it. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I highly doubt PCGS would touch these if they felt in any way they were counterfeit. That to me is worth a discussion. What is the point of discussing what has already been discussed ad nauseum? Without reinventing the wheel, I refer you to my previous posts replete with case law finding that a genuine U.S. coin overstruck with a rare design made in the likelihood of official coinage by unauthorized dies is counterfeit (see post #9161211, http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9161211&fpart=9). More importantly, how would arguing this topic relate to this thread? There is precedent for PCGS intentionally slabbing counterfeit coins. Here is an example: http://www.coinweek.com/video-news/new-videos/video-1804-silver-dollar-electrotype-certified-by-pcgs/ Certifying his pieces would just be another obvious money grab by PCGS IMHO. Nothing would surprise me, but even if it does slab them, it does NOT legitimize them IMHO. Like Afterword, I do not think I will waste any more time with this thread, which it seems (in light of subsequent posts) was started to create a protracted argument. Edited August 1, 2016 by coinman_23885 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Coinman, excellent discussion on the case law in the other thread. I hadn't seen that before, but it followed along with my thinking on the subject of these pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Lyds Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Unless the word "Copy" appears on the piece, it violates both the Hobby Protection Act and counterfeiting law. As it should be. I believe Dcarr discloses but, when these "coins" get in the wrong hands, many undereducated buyers will get hosed. Yeah! Like the fella that bought the 09-SVDB that was the size of a cup coaster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrantique Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Coinman, excellent discussion on the case law in the other thread. I hadn't seen that before, but it followed along with my thinking on the subject of these pieces. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkVIIIMarc Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Interesting. I was my first exposure to this fraudster D.Carr. Honestly some of his fiscal cliff coins are pretty funny and I wouldn't mind owning one. The Military Industrial Complex token is priceless. The need to make pretend dates of historic coins is just strange and does seem like it is or should be illegal. Inserting pretend food into his cereal box or pretend pills into his heart medicine would be similar. Just like I can carry reference material with me and tell real from counterfeit coins he can carry around the scientific equipment needed to verify his cereal or blood pressure pills are real. People should order his product with pretend credit cards and see what he says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarr Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 What is the point of discussing what has already been discussed ad nauseum? Without reinventing the wheel, I refer you to my previous posts replete with case law finding that a genuine U.S. coin overstruck with a rare design made in the likelihood of official coinage by unauthorized dies is counterfeit (see post #9161211, http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9161211&fpart=9). Note that my rebuttal of the above was on page 13 of that thread: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9161211&fpart=13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarr Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Certifying his pieces would just be another obvious money grab by PCGS IMHO. Nothing would surprise me, but even if it does slab them, it does NOT legitimize them IMHO. Like Afterword, I do not think I will waste any more time with this thread, which it seems (in light of subsequent posts) was started to create a protracted argument. PCGS is part of a corporation, with stockholders, and it operates for the purpose of making money. Companies come out with new products all the time. So does NGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarr Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) Inserting pretend food into his cereal box or pretend pills into his heart medicine would be similar. Just like I can carry reference material with me and tell real from counterfeit coins he can carry around the scientific equipment needed to verify his cereal or blood pressure pills are real. Not even remotely similar. Non-essential novelty items like collectible coins are certainly not in the same class as essential items like food and medicine. Regarding the production and sale of fake food and fake heart medicine, that is something that is already happening: Deadly Fake Medicines "The world’s medicine supply is under attack. From Pakistan, where 120 patients died after taking fake heart medicine, to the United States, where 32 patients died and hundreds were hospitalized because of contaminated steroids, regulators are finding their defenses overwhelmed by shoddy drug companies and organized criminal groups that make fake drugs containing no active ingredients. It is estimated that at least 100,000 people die every year from substandard and falsified medicines for cancer, heart disease, infectious diseases and other ailments." People should order his product with pretend credit cards and see what he says. I wouldn't even know it if they tried. All card processing is automatic and all I see is a email message for each successfully placed order. Edited August 2, 2016 by dcarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocketArt Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Personally, I don't see a problem with PCGS, or, NGC slabbing Dan Carr pieces. I respect the arguments for, and, against Carr productions. However; I've stated in the past, and firmly believe that it isn't Carr fantasy productions this hobby has to worry about; but rather Chinese counterfeits which are done in the shadows and are sold to collectors on a daily basis. These illicit operations are refining activities to fool the best TPG's, and unfortunately have distributors in the U.S. that will feed the production so long as there is profit to be made. I don't collect the fantasy pieces because it doesn't appeal to my collecting needs, but I do respect those that do appreciate Dan's work and see no problem as he's on the numismatic map, and not a threat to collectors. Realistically; I can't imagine a scenario where someone would be a victim of fraud in this digital age, or, in the future. I do like Mr. Carr's Clark Gruber & Co. productions, his latest 1916 1oz. centennial issues, and his concept dollar all of which I own. For those that don't know; In the May 23rd, 2016 issue of Coin World Weekly, Daniel Carr is featured on page 5 with his concept dollar the subject. Coin World even gives a plug where readers may purchase one, and directs hobbyist to his website. As always, the threat is China... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinman_23885 Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Personally, I don't see a problem with PCGS, or, NGC slabbing Dan Carr pieces. I respect the arguments for, and, against Carr productions. However; I've stated in the past, and firmly believe that it isn't Carr fantasy productions this hobby has to worry about; but rather Chinese counterfeits which are done in the shadows and are sold to collectors on a daily basis. These illicit operations are refining activities to fool the best TPG's, and unfortunately have distributors in the U.S. that will feed the production so long as there is profit to be made. I don't collect the fantasy pieces because it doesn't appeal to my collecting needs, but I do respect those that do appreciate Dan's work and see no problem as he's on the numismatic map, and not a threat to collectors. Realistically; I can't imagine a scenario where someone would be a victim of fraud in this digital age, or, in the future. I do like Mr. Carr's Clark Gruber & Co. productions, his latest 1916 1oz. centennial issues, and his concept dollar all of which I own. For those that don't know; In the May 23rd, 2016 issue of Coin World Weekly, Daniel Carr is featured on page 5 with his concept dollar the subject. Coin World even gives a plug where readers may purchase one, and directs hobbyist to his website. As always, the threat is China... How are his pieces materially and significantly distinguishable from China's finest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocketArt Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 By publications who acknowledge his business as authentic, an in house operation that the public may tour, a following of collectors who respect his function, a private mint production that is documented and made public. This all done in the open for the past seven years without government intervention to stop his efforts... If the PTB thought his livelihood was a threat to our hobby, or, monetary system they would have shut him down by now. Wouldn't you think? Also, ANACS and ICG graders slab his fantasy tokens and private mint productions in recognition of his efforts for collectors who submit his work. The difference to me is black and white with all due respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinman_23885 Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 By publications who acknowledge his business as authentic, an in house operation that the public may tour, a following of collectors who respect his function, a private mint production that is documented and made public. This all done in the open for the past seven years without government intervention to stop his efforts... Also, ANACS and ICG graders slab his fantasy tokens and private mint productions in recognition of his efforts for collectors who submit his work. The difference to me is black and white with all due respect. The problem I have with your argument is that the laws are written to protect the average American who has no specialized knowledge of numismatics or authentication and is unlikely to be aware of the materials. Think lowest common denominator here - the average flea market buyer, the type that buys overpriced junk on eBay, the type that fall prey to the TV hucksters - to them, how would his pieces be different in deceptiveness to the Alibaba special? There is nothing to keep someone from removing his pieces from its original packaging and throwing it in a 2x2 and misrepresenting the item. Even if the purchaser does not know about the full story of some of his coins or the rarity that a real piece would have (like the 1964-D Peace Dollar), and mistakes them for trial or experimental pieces? If the PTB thought his livelihood was a threat to our hobby, or, monetary system they would have shut him down by now. Wouldn't you think? The wheels of justice turn ever so slowly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
