I Guess They Didn't Want to Grade Mine...
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30 posts in this topic

60 posts

To say I am dismayed is putting it mildly. I garnered 5 opinions from respected dealers at the show before I sent this one in ( via one of those dealers- I am only a hobbyist- my grading skills are pretty good). NO ONE detected any flaw with this coin, let alone rim destruction. I don't see it and I don't believe you will either. It is a fantastic beauty when seen with the naked eye, NO scratches on the reverse and only a slight one on the obverse. One fellow said he believed it might garner a 66/67, with most others in the 64/65 range. It is very difficult to look at this piece now knowing what has happened to it. What can I do ? I honestly believe I have been wronged. Thanks.

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4339408-004/

Edited by Dave1384

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Filled rims is almost always very noticeable. It is something even modestly experienced collectors can detect.

 

I hate to tell you this but the people who gave their opinions on the grade of your coin probably barely even looked at the rim. That happens a lot. People will examine the obverse and reverse of a coin all day but usually (at best) give a passing glance to the rim.

 

I am sorry but there is nothing you can do. Your coin has been repaired. It is no eligible to get a numerical grade. You can sit here and play a game of "what if" that without that repair maybe it would of graded MS64, 65 etc but sadly that is never going to happen.

 

Edit:

I want to add one thing.

 

Let us ignore the rim. Let us just examine the coin on the obverse and reverse only. I am sorry but these "dealers" you mention that told you this is a MS 65 or even MS67 coin are quite frankly out of their minds.

 

This coin is not at all an MS65 or higher level coin. I can see plenty of enough marks on the obverse and cheek to disqualify it from being a 65. This coin appears to of been at best a 62 or 63.

Edited by planman2014

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I'm going to have to agree with Planman here. Sans the rim issue (which I can't see) the coin is a 62 or 63. The luster and marks (I see a lot of issues on the cheek...I think) take it far from a gem...may have been dipped as well.

 

jom

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" Filled rims is almost always very noticeable". Well, no one detected any. So there.

 

There are no shards of metal missing from the denticles surrounding both sides.

I showed it to someone today. He shook his head in disbelief. The expanded photo collage in the link exposes some minor scratches, but you cannot see them in the holder. When I look at photograde pictures of mint state Morgans online, the 60 to 65 range are usually beat up. Even in the holder. Mine is not.

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" Filled rims is almost always very noticeable". Well, no one detected any. So there.

 

There are no shards of metal missing from the denticles surrounding both sides.

I showed it to someone today. He shook his head in disbelief. The expanded photo collage in the link exposes some minor scratches, but you cannot see them in the holder. When I look at photograde pictures of mint state Morgans online, the 60 to 65 range are usually beat up. Even in the holder. Mine is not.

 

There are numerous and noticeable lines/flaws all over Liberty's face and the coin looks MS62, at best. In my opinion, based on the images provided, anyone who thinks the coin grades 65 (or even 64) or better, is not knowledgeable about grading.

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From the images, MS62 sounds about right. I'm sure NGC got it right.

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Going from that picture, the rims do appear to have an odd appearance between 5:00 - 7:00 on both the obv. and especially the rev. but it not the clearest of pictures to go by. Aside from that, as the others have said it looks like a low grade unc. coin in that picture maybe an MS62 at best IMO.

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Don't sweat it, it is still a nice coin. Crack it and stick it in an album and enjoy it for what it is. If you put it in an album, no one will notice the rim issue.

 

For what it's worth, I have had my own share of "grading tuition". In fact, I had a "counting wheel damage" on my last submission I missed.

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Dave, it's entirely possible that this coin was cracked out of a slab previously.

I have to agree with all the opinions here. Compare your coins appearance to a common date 63 or 64......

Paul

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Check out the area on the obverse below the date. That could be the problem area with respect to rim filling. It could also be under on of the prongs.

 

So far as the grade goes, I agree with others. It is a best an MS-62 excluding any defects.

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To say I am dismayed is putting it mildly. I garnered 5 opinions from respected dealers at the show before I sent this one in ( via one of those dealers- I am only a hobbyist- my grading skills are pretty good). NO ONE detected any flaw with this coin, let alone rim destruction. I don't see it and I don't believe you will either. It is a fantastic beauty when seen with the naked eye, NO scratches on the reverse and only a slight one on the obverse. One fellow said he believed it might garner a 66/67, with most others in the 64/65 range. It is very difficult to look at this piece now knowing what has happened to it. What can I do ? I honestly believe I have been wronged. Thanks.

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4339408-004/

 

The numerous handling lines and bag marks put this piece into the MS62 - MS63 range. It is impossible to say whether or not there is rim filling based on the images, but NGC got that idea from somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

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Quick --- take it to those "respected dealers at the show" and sell it for MS64-money.....Let them feast on it.

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I don't mind owning a coin if I can SEE the flaw. I have sent three in to grading services. Two I nailed the numerical grade. The third, also, but it was corroded. That is fine. I suspected it. But not this one. The reverse is at least a 66. The obverse is superior to what I see in the photograde pictures at 62/63. As windoc said, I will try to enjoy owning it, But it will be hard.

Edited by Dave1384

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I don't mind owning a coin if I can SEE the flaw. I have sent three in to grading services. Two I nailed the numerical grade. The third, also, but it was corroded. That is fine. I suspected it. But not this one. The reverse is at least a 66. The obverse is superior to what I see in the photograde pictures at 62/63. As windoc said, I will try to enjoy owning it, But it will be hard.

 

If you can't enjoy it, why not sell it and move on?

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The obverse looks MS 62 or 63 at best to me and that is more important than the reverse.

 

As far as the rim filing goes; I really can't see the rims well from those images. You would really need to see it in hand and inspect all of the angles with a loupe.

 

I agree with Mark---if it gives you no pleasure; it would be easy to sell it and buy one that you DO like, even if it costs a little extra. It would be worth it down the road and you'd enjoy it more.

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If you witnessed it in hand I think you would see why I make the claim I do.The obverse image by NGC shows minor flaws, I agree. But they are not visible even when reflected in the sun. What I really want is another chance in that grading room.I'm looking at it now. One tiny scratch on the cheek. The fields are pristine. The Eagle looks amazing.

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If you witnessed it in hand I think you would see why I make the claim I do.The obverse image by NGC shows minor flaws, I agree. But they are not visible even when reflected in the sun. What I really want is another chance in that grading room.I'm looking at it now. One tiny scratch on the cheek. The fields are pristine. The Eagle looks amazing.

 

Forget the fields and the eagle. There are multiple flaws (not just "a tiny scratch") on the focal point of the obverse - Liberty's cheek. If they are apparent in the image, they are on the coin. It's possible that the flaws are being obscured when you view the coin under sunlight.

 

You don't sound as if you really want objective feedback. It's your coin and your money, so if you want to get the coin regarded, go ahead.

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"The obverse image by NGC shows minor flaws, I agree. But they are not visible even when reflected in the sun."

 

Please re-read the above a few times....It might help you understand the difficulty.

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Rim filing (not to be confused with filling) appears to be below the date and is visible on both obverse and reverse. And I agree that obverse marks keep this coin at 62 or below.

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If you witnessed it in hand I think you would see why I make the claim I do.The obverse image by NGC shows minor flaws, I agree. But they are not visible even when reflected in the sun. What I really want is another chance in that grading room.I'm looking at it now. One tiny scratch on the cheek. The fields are pristine. The Eagle looks amazing.

 

Just a few things you might consider:

 

First, this date that I am sure you are already aware is a semi-key date in the Morgan Dollar series. The difference between a details grade and a full grade could make a difference of hundreds of dollars. That said, it is very unlikely that the outcome will change if you re-submit the coin. You are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment. Furthermore, it will leave you embittered against NGC for no good reason. The graders are all professional numismatists and you are paying for their opinion about your coin which NGC in turn guarantees for authenticity and grade. The last thing they want is to pay out on that guarantee. They will not give you their rational for their decision either.

 

Next the people who have rendered an opinion to you here free of charge are giving you good advice based on experience. Some of them are also professional numismatists. They are only interested in helping you to get the most out of this hobby and to avoid the pitfalls.

 

Finally, it is not my place to tell people what to do or what to collect. However, if it was my coin, I'd sell the details graded coin and use the proceeds to subsidize an 1899 NGC or PCGS graded MS-63. One method I use to protect myself from the dreaded purple label is to only buy graded coins. I know it can be fun to cherry pick raw coins and find that you found a real gem worth a lot of money but you need a really good, trained eye to pull that off. Many have tried and lost their shirts. Save yourself the hassle and buy graded.

Gary

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Throws up hands.

Folks, I prefer frank opinions. It may not appear that way, but I suppose I am just trying to defend my decision. I knew it was a semi key and I had been looking at the date for about a year. I resisted ebay, which actually wasn't hard. I stumbled on this one by accident, looked at it through a loupe, liked what I saw and paid the 190.I wasn't even thinking about a score. I thought it's appearance was exceptional, the reverse is what really prompted the purchase. Recalling the photograde images in my head and the awful appearance of the low to mid 60's grades, I believed I had something special.The chap I bought it from actually bought it back from me a month later because of a perceived flaw in the eye. A month later I bought it again, not seeing it myself and also since I thought that was an honorable thing to do, I would give him my business again. In the hands of those who examined it before grading, nary a negative. And so I threw caution to the wind and had it sent in. And here I am...

 

Yes, I could perhaps move along to another. I actually did that with a 3 legged nickel and wound up with a better coin. And yes, Gary, I would love to hear the rational. I really thought I would find an ally here or two, it's ok, No one here will be disparaged because they don't see it as I do. It isn't the money I spent, just the failure of my judgement seen by others. I was that confident at the time.

 

Perhaps discouragement will bring me some wisdom.

Edited by Dave1384

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If you paid $190 (which is AU money) for the coin you are doing fine and got roughly what you paid for. How long have you been collecting Morgans? I made some mistakes buying raw coins in my early days that had a nice look but I now recognize as having problems. These are good learning experiences and since you are really only out the cost of grading, this isn't a very expensive lesson.

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Perhaps discouragement will bring me some wisdom.

 

And experience, too.

 

Each and every one of us has had a story very similar to yours.

 

It IS discouraging but it gives you valuable insight and knowledge, so that it won't happen again.

 

We are all pretty honest here and will give it to you straight, so never forget you are among friends. (thumbs u

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... What can I do ? I honestly believe I have been wronged. Thanks.

Sell it to the respected dealer who said 66/67 for 65 money and move on. Frankly, the coin actually looks AU58 to me.from the pictures. I'm not sure where the rim filing is, but I assume it's visible on the coin in hand unless they buried it under one of the fangs on the holder.

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A mid-west PNG dealer who knows his stuff had an 1874--cc $20 in inventory for a while with the rim filing problem noted on the holder. Otherwise the coin was PQ, and he sold it as such. There are many small shows where it is hard to find a dealer who will make a really honest assessment of a coin especially with regard to another dealer at the show for obvious reasons.

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Interesting.

This is the only Morgan I have. I've looked at them for years, but never bought one. All I wanted was a numerical grade for a pretty 19th century example . That's all. They didn't give me one. I ventured over to ebay and looked at 63's. Many are junk.

Come to think of it, I have never seen a label with 'rim filing' on it. I can almost live with a lousy grade. But not a reject.

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Interesting.

This is the only Morgan I have. I've looked at them for years, but never bought one. All I wanted was a numerical grade for a pretty 19th century example . That's all. They didn't give me one. I ventured over to ebay and looked at 63's. Many are junk.

Come to think of it, I have never seen a label with 'rim filing' on it. I can almost live with a lousy grade. But not a reject.

 

You liked the look of the coin, both before and after it was submitted for grading. And you don't like the look of many coins that have received numerical grades. So why not focus on the way the coin looks to you, rather than on a couple of words on a grading label?

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Thanks, Mark. They always say buy the coin, not the label. I'll remember your comment every time I take it out.

 

I have an update. I received a communication from NGC customer service. Evidently, the decision was unanimous on the defect. I can move on. Thanks to everyone.

Edited by Dave1384

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I have a CC Morgan with the same error. It has a little bump on the rim so it gets the details grade I guess.

 

A rim bump is not the same as rim filing.

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