"Just Having Fun" MS68 PCGS Slab! 0

[Afterword]

"Unfortunately coinman is right on the mark. Price guides do reflect mostly auction results unless dealers report local sales."

 

 

 

Did I say otherwise?

 

 

 

"I once talked to a consignor at Heritage about selling some cameo Franklins and was given grim expectations on results. He referred me to past auction results of 550 at low end to 1350 on high end for a particular coin. Because I paid 1900 I decided to consign back to the original dealer I purchased from and after a few weeks it sold for 1800."

 

 

 

It sounds to me like you paid an inflated price for a coin from a dealer and then had the dealer sell it for you at an inflated price to someone else at a loss to you.

 

Would you not have been better off buying such a coin at Heritage in the first place?

[numisport]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

[Afterword]

"If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........"

 

 

 

If so, it is because there is now more than just one - not because the first one had flaws. If the second one has the same flaws as the first it would fetch less than if it did not, and if it did not it might very well match or even exceed the realized price for the first coin. Quality will be recognized and compensated accordingly.

[Afterword]

"Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world."

 

 

 

There are no high end coins in the auction world? You certainly have some interesting views.

[MarkFeld]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

[coinman_23885]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

 

Absolutely, and I hope that my comments were not construed to suggest otherwise. My problem/dislike is with the coin and not Mitch (a/k/a wondercoin). Mitch has described a certified coin and included images that plainly show the issues that I dislike so it is all out there for the buyer to see and make his or her own determination. It is up to a potential buyer to decide what the coin is worth to him or her.

[MarkFeld]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

 

Absolutely, and I hope that my comments were not construed to suggest otherwise. My problem/dislike is with the coin and not Mitch (a/k/a wondercoin). Mitch has described a certified coin and included images that plainly show the issues that I dislike so it is all out there for the buyer to see and make his or her own determination. It is up to a potential buyer to decide what the coin is worth to him or her.

 

I can't speak for others, but your comments certainly weren't construed to suggest otherwise by me.

 

[Hard Times]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

 

Absolutely, and I hope that my comments were not construed to suggest otherwise. My problem/dislike is with the coin and not Mitch (a/k/a wondercoin). Mitch has described a certified coin and included images that plainly show the issues that I dislike so it is all out there for the buyer to see and make his or her own determination. It is up to a potential buyer to decide what the coin is worth to him or her.

 

No mention of the green goo on the reverse or the notches taken out of the bands and torch in the ebay listing description - so none of the detractions are mentioned.... ......

 

But at least the images are very good so the buyer can seal their own fate if they choose.

 

As they say - Caveat Emptor.

 

Best, HT

[numisport]

What will really make you wonder what's going on is when NGC grades one better with 68FT label that sells for oh I don't know lets say half the price, onlookers might say well that's 'cause its in an NGC holder. See what I mean !

[erwindoc]

Wish I could get a few of my dimes into MS68 holders! Sure have tried too!

[MarkFeld]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

 

Absolutely, and I hope that my comments were not construed to suggest otherwise. My problem/dislike is with the coin and not Mitch (a/k/a wondercoin). Mitch has described a certified coin and included images that plainly show the issues that I dislike so it is all out there for the buyer to see and make his or her own determination. It is up to a potential buyer to decide what the coin is worth to him or her.

 

No mention of the green goo on the reverse or the notches taken out of the bands and torch in the ebay listing description - so none of the detractions are mentioned.... ......

 

But at least the images are very good so the buyer can seal their own fate if they choose.

 

As they say - Caveat Emptor.

 

Best, HT

 

I think the best/most useful descriptions are those which let viewers know in what way(s) the coin differs from how it appears in the images. Of far less importance are descriptions which tell viewers what is already apparent in the images.

[Afterword]

Rod Serling just appeared in my office and is now beginning his prologue for this week's episode of The Twilight Zone. Everything is in black and white - my entire office and the world outside of my office window.

 

The smoke from his cigarette hangs thick in the air, twisting around him like a ghostly serpent and, as the room begins to spin around me, I hear him say something about a message board and what he describes as "....a most unusual poster...." and I begin to

Edited May 11, 2016 by Afterword

[Nutmeg Coin]

I was speaking to a dealer yesterday about this coin who has been in the business over 50 years. He said he wouldn't be able in good faith to sell coins like this due to the fact that he is willing to buy back any coin he sells. At least high value coins with CAC stickers have an active bid level.

[MarkFeld]

I was speaking to a dealer yesterday about this coin who has been in the business over 50 years. He said he wouldn't be able in good faith to sell coins like this due to the fact that he is willing to buy back any coin he sells. At least high value coins with CAC stickers have an active bid level.

 

That doesn't mean that other dealers couldn't sell the coin in good faith. And your comment about high value coins with CAC stickers having an "active bid level" is an overly broad generalization.

 

The coin under discussion serves as a good example. Regardless of how good the quality might be, a coin of that type and grade probably wouldn't have an "active bid level", even with a CAC sticker.

[coinman1794]

They may actually be digs in the planchet that still show up after striking. Now that I look at the pictures a second time, they more closely resemble the latter than they do strike-thru indents. The jagged edges and fissure-like appearance indicate that metal tried to close them in when the dies made contact, but failed to completely erase them. If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade. These are often referred to as "tumbling marks," and are caused by planchets banging together while being tumbled around with steel beads as part of the preparation. They are most commonly seen on Ike dollars. Even the deepest tumbling marks will seem to disappear at certain angles, due to the presence of metal flow going through them.

 

The coin below shows both bag marks and tumbling marks. The red arrow shows the jagged, inverted edge on a large, deep tumbling mark that tried to close during striking. The blue arrow shows bag marks that scraped the surface and moved metal away.

 

The roughness above the tumbling mark is a mixture of other, smaller tumbling marks and grease strike-thru roughness.

 

 

 

 

[coinman1794]

Rod Serling just appeared in my office and is now beginning his prologue for this week's episode of The Twilight Zone. Everything is in black and white - my entire office and the world outside of my office window.

 

The smoke from his cigarette hangs thick in the air, twisting around him like a ghostly serpent and, as the room begins to spin around me, I hear him say something about a message board and what he describes as "....a most unusual poster...." and I begin to

 

I actually just read that today, Wednesday, is official Twilight Zone Day.

[Afterword]

I had no idea. That is an interesting, and appropriate, coincidence.

[Afterword]

"If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade."

 

 

 

 

 

So, when considering eye appeal, the graders ignore these tumbling marks?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

They may actually be digs in the planchet that still show up after striking. Now that I look at the pictures a second time, they more closely resemble the latter than they do strike-thru indents. The jagged edges and fissure-like appearance indicate that metal tried to close them in when the dies made contact, but failed to completely erase them. If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade. These are often referred to as "tumbling marks," and are caused by planchets banging together while being tumbled around with steel beads as part of the preparation. They are most commonly seen on Ike dollars. Even the deepest tumbling marks will seem to disappear at certain angles, due to the presence of metal flow going through them.

 

The coin below shows both bag marks and tumbling marks. The red arrow shows the jagged, inverted edge on a large, deep tumbling mark that tried to close during striking. The blue arrow shows bag marks that scraped the surface and moved metal away.

 

The roughness above the tumbling mark is a mixture of other, smaller tumbling marks and grease strike-thru roughness.

 

 

 

 

Note D and O. Note 1st L.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

"If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade."

 

 

 

 

 

So, when considering eye appeal, the graders ignore these tumbling marks?

 

Since eye appeal is an opinion and everyone has a different opinion and different eye strength and depth perception and color acumen and sharpness, it is best described as "I know it if I see it, even if the other guy doesn't", so the question is best asked of the Grader(s). Experience and knowledge of what a condition is with coin in hand is of course of immense value in determining an eye appeal opinion. In the end, it is all it is. An opinion.

[MarkFeld]

"If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade."

 

 

 

 

 

So, when considering eye appeal, the graders ignore these tumbling marks?

 

Since eye appeal is an opinion and everyone has a different opinion and different eye strength and depth perception and color acumen and sharpness, it is best described as "I know it if I see it, even if the other guy doesn't", so the question is best asked of the Grader(s). Experience and knowledge of what a condition is with coin in hand is of course of immense value in determining an eye appeal opinion. In the end, it is all it is. An opinion.

 

Additionally, I have seen enough coins graded 67 and higher, which bore mint-made flaws/distractions, such that I believe graders usually (at least largely) ignore such marks.

[Afterword]

"If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade."

 

 

 

 

 

So, when considering eye appeal, the graders ignore these tumbling marks?

 

Since eye appeal is an opinion and everyone has a different opinion and different eye strength and depth perception and color acumen and sharpness, it is best described as "I know it if I see it, even if the other guy doesn't", so the question is best asked of the Grader(s). Experience and knowledge of what a condition is with coin in hand is of course of immense value in determining an eye appeal opinion. In the end, it is all it is. An opinion.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for addressing my question, Mr. Feld.

 

Additionally, I have seen enough coins graded 67 and higher, which bore mint-made flaws/distractions, such that I believe graders usually (at least largely) ignore such marks.

[AHFreak]

So Mark, are you speaking in generalities when u talk about mint made flaws/ distractions? or are you referring specifically to the dime that started this thread? I am curious as to your opinion on the 2 marks on the bottom torch of the dimes , are those 2 marks a product of the minting process or mint-made flaws/distractions OR are those 2 marks literal "hits/scrapes/dings/etc.." or other post mint damage so to speak?

 

 

The other question Mark, In your opinion should these marks be factored into the grade a particular coin is given?

 

I am surprised at how divided the opinions are on what the marks actually are and how they should be factored into the grading process, mainly because almost every single coin I look at/buy/sale/submit for grading/etc have those marks to some degree from copper cents to dollars and everything in between.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

"If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade."

 

 

 

 

 

So, when considering eye appeal, the graders ignore these tumbling marks?

 

Since eye appeal is an opinion and everyone has a different opinion and different eye strength and depth perception and color acumen and sharpness, it is best described as "I know it if I see it, even if the other guy doesn't", so the question is best asked of the Grader(s). Experience and knowledge of what a condition is with coin in hand is of course of immense value in determining an eye appeal opinion. In the end, it is all it is. An opinion.

 

Additionally, I have seen enough coins graded 67 and higher, which bore mint-made flaws/distractions, such that I believe graders usually (at least largely) ignore such marks.

 

This also brings up another issue that you and I discussed on the Board ATS in depth many years ago, concerning what power and quality the eyepiece is when arriving at an opinion. The differences are vast, and there is tendency to look at a coin after the grading and encapsulation with a 20 billion power eyepiece, a microscope, etc., (I know... a little exaggeration) and declare the grader(s) of the TPG/4PG as not very capable or completely off base. I still see this occur at various shows and on internet forums, and then the "proof" of position is to use a multiples increased photo to support/deny a position.

[Afterword]

"I am surprised at how divided the opinions are on what the marks actually are and how they should be factored into the grading process, mainly because almost every single coin I look at/buy/sale/submit for grading/etc have those marks to some degree from copper cents to dollars and everything in between."

 

 

 

 

I have such coins, as well. If I am not mistaken, this subject has come up before on this message board.

 

[coinman1794]

"If the luster is unbroken, as you have said, they are definitely mint made, and should not affect the grade."

 

 

 

 

 

So, when considering eye appeal, the graders ignore these tumbling marks?

 

In most cases, tumbling marks are completely ignored. They are part of the coin as it was struck.

[Afterword]

Thanks, 1794.

[numisport]

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

Please allow me to rephrase my statement about high end coins at auctions. Absolutely there are high end coins available at auctions. Personally I have never been pleased with my purchases at auction. Additionally I nearly bid on some coins in my watch list recently only to find a nice lot was won by a purveyor then offered for sale at a higher price. Sorry about any confusion. There is just too much substandard material out there and it usually ends up at auction.

[Hard Times]

Be that as it may, tumbling, bumbling, mumbling marks or whatever. Thems serious gouges on a common coin with 10s of millions extant. Why would anyone pay $10K for it beyond me. If graders have the capability to know how each mark on a coin is made, and then grade high if tumbled marks, low if post made marks, well then, they must be psychic.........

 

Best, HT

[MarkFeld]

Be that as it may, tumbling, bumbling, mumbling marks or whatever. Thems serious gouges on a common coin with 10s of millions extant. Why would anyone pay $10K for it beyond me. If graders have the capability to know how each mark on a coin is made, and then grade high if tumbled marks, low if post made marks, well then, they must be psychic.........

 

Best, HT

 

You don't' think graders (or for that matters, non-graders familiar with such coins) can tell the difference between mint-made marks and post-mint flaws? I think in most cases they can. That said, while I might be in the minority, I don't think either type of flaws should get free passes with respect to grading.