NGC's reponse to adjusting the Presidential MS point posted by walnutto
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157 posts in this topic

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And one more point that I'd like to dispell- Whitman and others made lots of different folders and if you had done a little research before making such an unfounded claim you'd have found that they did indeed have folders and albums to accomodate clads in the early 1980's.

 

I've tried to get info from Whitman but get no response. It appears they printed clad quarter albums in 1978 but this was a small printing and sales were abysmal. The next was, I believe 1984 but again sales were poor.

 

As I said earlier, there is still no album made for clad quarters. I believe sales would be reasonably good but they aren't made (as of two years ago). This to me is simply astounding. Order a catalog from Brooklynn Coin and Stamp or just google it. You don't actually have to wear out good shoe leather trapsing from coin store to coin store any longer. Try Whitman, Dansco, or any major supplier.

 

How many Gem '82 quarters are going to be found in the 1978 folders?

 

 

I have my set in a Dansco album so how can you make such a claim? And your point that few are interested just backs what I have been saying- the market is so dreadfully shallow that there is zero demand- if you stopped buying them half the market might be gone, so think about that for a while. When they are popular enough to entice their owners to dig them out of the closet or attic they will be available in larger numbers, but without that intial surge of demand, that won't happen for a long time and we won't know just how rare of common they really are. Your guesses are no guaranty and I think the smart money would avoid paying huge sums of money up front like they'd avoid a bad flu.

 

Abysmal sales or not, we sold the folders for clad quarters ourselves, in our small jewelry store in the middle of nowhere (during the state quarter craze), so obviously someone was buying them.

 

And why would it matter where someone put their gem 1982 quarter? If it is gem it is gem. That folder isn't going to change the grade on a copper nickel quarter nearly as much as a silver one, and I have seen enough superb gem silvers come out of folders in the past.

 

I'll look through the stuff saved from our store when we closed it back around 2007- I forgot all about them, we bought them one or two dozen at a time if I recall. I remember putting some folders in a carton and packing them away, maybe there are some clad quarter folders in the mix...

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Look them up- they have gone up in value exponentially since the 1970's, yet he died with that hoard. Why would he not have sold them into the market if what you say is true of collectors, hoarders or dealers? ...The coins are still out there. Time is the only thing that will bring them out. They are NOT 1804 dollars and NONE ONE knows that gem 1982 quarters are presently scarce.

 

Let me try one more time. I mentioned this in passing earlier but perhaps you missed it.

 

People do die and countless millions have died since 1982. So why are the heirs sitting on these coins? Did the owner leave a note telling them they'd be rich someday if they held onto them. Are these being passed down through the genenerations like genes and language? Your contention is absurd and can be laid bare by just looking at the known facts. The coins sell for hundreds of dollars each even without good strikes. This is a fact and nothing you say agrees with this fact. To believe that there are countless millions of coins despite the fact that I've surveyed and sampled these coins for 34 years flies in the face of the facts.

 

Perhaps the biggest irony here is theat John J Pittman collected moderns, especially quarters, and when he died none of the moderns were for sale. Apparently he told his family not to sell until there were realistic prices.

 

But no logically thinking person that I have ever been associated with would blindly believe that more wouldn't come out of the woodwork when there were 500 million made and many were taken out of circulation at the time of issue. To me, it takes a fool to pick one outcome over another with so little evidece that he was right. Again, time will tell the rest of this story.

 

I don't expect anyone to believe anything. I expect people to look at the facts rather than proceed on perceptions. The fact is that a Gem '82-P quarter would sell for more than $600 and you're not selling.

 

I've done the grunt work. I've seen what's available and especially what is not. I've advertised for years to buy these and didn't get a single true Gem. I've acquired several BU rolls and partial rolls since 1982 including the bag of "Gems". I even traded for a very massive lot of 1982-P quarters yanked out of circulation in 1985 after Numismatics News reported on the rarity of the coin.

 

This massive lot was quite interesting. I acquired it chiefly to acquaint myself of what was available in that area in 1985. But I also wanted to search for the type "d" reverse that I'd never seen on the '82-P. In this lot were three coins that could pass for Unc. One wasn't toobad (MS-62). The rest were about what I expected and include 5% super sliders and 10% sliders. The rest were AU and XF+. There were a couple well made coins and one was a slider. This was a huge lot of about 2,000 coins. I spent all but three of them; the MS-62 and the two wellmade coins.

 

As I said earlier, if you look at the '82-P in the sets assembled and sold in large quantities you'll see sliders, AU-58 and AU-55. You'll rarely see an uncirculated coin in the slot for '82-P.

 

You don't need to believe me but if you looked in the market I'm sure you would very very soon.

 

 

 

I'm just using this one date as a microcosm for all moderns. The fact is each and every date has its owwn characteristics, availability and demand. Many moderns are far scarcer than the classics but the demand is very low. For instance, nearly a quarter of the nickels made after 1964 are actually scarcer in nice Unc than the '50-D nickel. The later coins sell for peanuts not because they are common or high mintage but because they aren't collected and they aren't collected because so many people hate moderns. So many people hate moderns that even the price guides are inaccurate and irrelevant.

 

You asked; Next year I'll have been collecting for 60 years and my earliest memory is six months, though early memories run in my family. Some things from where I lived until three months look "familiar", but I don't remember them.

 

that is truly amazing, I thought I was a freak since I know no one who remembers before about a year and a half of age. And I agree, memories aren't always sharp, at least at first, but they sharpen as you think about them. I do remember events and facts and figures a lot easier than people's names, so no, my memory isn't perfect, but it is with facts and figures for some reason. It is the reason for my success in life, against all odds.

 

Before anything else, though, I would like you to define 'gem bu'. To me, I'm still old school, and a clean MS65 is a gem to me. A very clean gem with outstanding strike and luster is required for 67 or 68 and a near perfect looking blazing gem is required for 69 or 70. I have seen far too many slabs with the grades all over the place so it matters just what our personal standards for gem are.

 

I do remember the story in the numis pubs, I was working in the coin shop at the time and the owner and I debated the sense in hoarding them, both of us agreeing that in the end they become more common than other dates. Still not sure if that is going to prove true but I'm not betting my $$$ on it. Another point that I'd like to address that hasn't yet been is advertising. If you advertised in a numismatic publication and no general publications, that might explain your failure to lure them out. Anyone who reads the pubs would have sold them to you if they had them. Like I have been saying all along- they are mostly in the hands of non-collectors who are out of our mainstream. They don't know what you're talking about even if you could talk to them. Slabs didn't even exist when they hoarded these. And to say that just because 1% of the people who would likely have socked a bag or two away in the early 1980s may have died by now more should have been brought to market is another long stretch of the old odds machine- that portion of the total collective hoard in this country wouldn't even be noticed and likely much of it was left as a hoard, just one for the heirs instead of their parents. Like I said, we don't know, so we can't say they will be rare in the future. I do wish you luck with them.

 

ps- I'll look through old albums to see what I can find for you- if all clads are rare in high grade I know I have some that would go 69 anyway. Feel free to contact me privately through this site, would be happy to help you out since I no longer collect them...

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ps cladking- the price guides are inacurrate for most series. Morgans are common and more popular I agree, but the common dates are mere bullion coins, with remaining populations higher than some modern silver eagles, yet they sell for five to ten times bullion even in grades as low as MS62 or 63! Look up the 1796 and 1804 quarters- the 1804 is shown to be much rarer yet the 1796 demands prices that would make you think there were only fifty left in the whole world. In my series there are many instances of extremely rare coins (less than 100 knowns and even less than 50 knowns) booking for half or less of their current 'market' prices, and when these coins show up on the market they never last long, usually less than a week. That is the reality of our hobby- worthless info abounds and it's getting harder and harder to know what to believe...

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that is truly amazing, I thought I was a freak since I know no one who remembers before about a year and a half of age. And I agree, memories aren't always sharp, at least at first, but they sharpen as you think about them.

 

All I remember from six months are some smells. My more vivid and "continuous" memories don't start until about 14 months.

 

Before anything else, though, I would like you to define 'gem bu'. To me, I'm still old school, and a clean MS65 is a gem to me. A very clean gem with outstanding strike and luster is required for 67 or 68 and a near perfect looking blazing gem is required for 69 or 70. I have seen far too many slabs with the grades all over the place so it matters just what our personal standards for gem are.

 

To me a true Gem starts with being well struck by good dies and it ends with being virtually free of marking. I grade all coins pretty strictly but nothing more strictly than clads. This is largely caused by experience since I've been collecting clad so long (1972). In those early years Everything about a strike was usually bad. Dies were badly hubbed then they were misaligned in the press. They were used far too long even after detail was worn off and flow lines were ubiquitous. Even the first coins off a die pair usually had trouble because the pressure was too low.

 

I simply expect a fully struck coin for my collection. This means the tops of the lettering on the periphery are fully struck up and the tops are rounded. Of course some minor deficiencies are often to be expected.

 

I do remember the story in the numis pubs, I was working in the coin shop at the time and the owner and I debated the sense in hoarding them, both of us agreeing that in the end they become more common than other dates. Still not sure if that is going to prove true but I'm not betting my $$$ on it.

 

These stories started in May of 1985. The coins were already in circulation so it was far too late to set aside Uncs or Gems.

 

Like I have been saying all along- they are mostly in the hands of non-collectors who are out of our mainstream. They don't know what you're talking about even if you could talk to them.

 

I do agree that many of these coins are outside the numismatic mainstream. They are held by people who got a BU roll of quarters in 1982 and saved it on a lark. But the absolute number is just tiny. When it is taken to a coin shop after the owner dies it's quite possible the dealers won't even look it up and just advise the customer to spend them. I figure 40,000 in sets, 20,000 in rolls held by collectors, and 20,000 in rolls held by the public. That's it. I believe these are very liberal estimates. The initial number could be significantly lower and the attrition higher than people think. A lot of those sets were probably just cut up for the half dollar or cents. The Numis News sets wentr to many peoiple who had no interest at all in modern coins so were just spent. The souvenir sets were sold mainly to the general public.

 

If they were common they would not sell for $400+.

 

ps- I'll look through old albums to see what I can find for you- if all clads are rare in high grade I know I have some that would go 69 anyway. Feel free to contact me privately through this site, would be happy to help you out since I no longer collect them...

 

All you'll find is a few stray mint sets and 1976 quarters. There will not be a Gem clad quarter of any other date than 1976.

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People should be extremely cautious when someone is telling them something common is somehow *rare*.

 

I'm not a seller.

 

I'm a buyer.

 

Even though they are selling what I consider chBU coins for $400 I believe this price is far too low to entice me to sell. I believe there may not be even 2000 coins in chBU or better with only perhaps a couple hundred gemmy ones.

 

When the supply gets tight I'll let a few go so the market can continue to grow but the bulk won't go until it is more mature.

 

Keep in mind I don't have large numbers of these because they were scarce. I could have set aside as many MS-60's as I could find but I never bought MS-62 or lower and when I got them I always spent them. There is a limited amount of room in my safety deposit boxes and nobody can save everything. It cost me 25c to set aside a quarter and then there's a yearly fee on the boxes. All the time there was no way to know if these coins would ever be collected. Most people thought I was a fool for saving "junk".

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David W. Lange at NGC can help with information about coin folders.

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David W. Lange at NGC can help with information about coin folders.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. David W Lange (DWLange) has very extensive expertise but I had no idea that it extended to coin folders! He confirmed that there were no printings between '78 and '84 when the new larger picture was added to the front. It would seem probable the lapse in production was the result of very weak sales.

 

He added that production numbers were lost when the parent company was sold and they moved out of their headquarters in Racine Wisconsin in 1995.

 

1995 was the year of the depths of a coin depression and, no doubt, it hit this company harder than most. Back in the '60's they had sold countless folders and albums for circulating coinage but this business dried up when the modern coin market imploded in 1965 and then worsened as silver disappeared from circulation through 1969. By 1995 the hobby hadn't added new collectors for 30 years because the common belief was only garbage was in circulation. It's circulating coinage that brings in new collectors and it's new collectors who buy Whitman folders. The hobby was fundamentally changed in 1965.

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