Feel betrayed and very disappointed posted by walnutto
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26 posts in this topic

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Presidential Dollars, 2007-Date, Mint State Registry Point.

 

How in the world can I lose over 51,000 point??? Some are very low mintage and low in high grades.

I have worked on this set for 10 years. Half the dollars are ones I found raw and had graded. We will conclude this series this year and how can NGC strip all the points away now???

 

Keith

 

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Out of curiosity I looked through some ebay listings of this series with search word "MS68". Tons of satin finish coins in the MS68 grade but business strikes are pretty scarce. A few dates must have been struck well because they are in the $20 range ( fillmore, Wilson) but several of the years are in the hundreds BIN price with tags like "highest registry grade-pop 7"

 

It appears as if you have been done an injustice--what needs to be done would require quite a bit of work, but points need to be assessed coin by coin for this series. It is evident that all MS68's should not be getting the same points and that even some dates in MS67 are pretty scarce.....

 

2c

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I did some random checks and noted that the MS67FD and MS67FM's are worth more points than MS68 with no holder designation. I'm not complaining that a holder designation should be worth more points (I personally don't think it should) but it should not make a MS67 worth more than a MS68.

 

In some series a coin strike quality (full steps, full bands, full head, full bell lines) can make a lower graded coin point value exceed a higher base grade (e.g. many Jefferson nickels from the 1950's), but a simple holder designation based on when the coin was made or submitted does not meet this standard. The value of holder designations and rarity are for the market to sort out, not the Registry.

 

I will inquire to NGC regarding the MS67/68 quandary to at least get that resolved. I would hate to have to replace 68's with 67's to maximize my set value.

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I did some random checks and noted that the MS67FD and MS67FM's are worth more points than MS68 with no holder designation. I'm not complaining that a holder designation should be worth more points (I personally don't think it should) but it should not make a MS67 worth more than a MS68.

 

In some series a coin strike quality (full steps, full bands, full head, full bell lines) can make a lower graded coin point value exceed a higher base grade (e.g. many Jefferson nickels from the 1950's), but a simple holder designation based on when the coin was made or submitted does not meet this standard. The value of holder designations and rarity are for the market to sort out, not the Registry.

 

I will inquire to NGC regarding the MS67/68 quandary to at least get that resolved. I would hate to have to replace 68's with 67's to maximize my set value.

 

Do you care more about the set score or the actual coins?

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Good Morning.

Thank you for the inquiry. (We replied to your email, as well.) All of the Presidential Dollar scores are in the process of being reassessed across the board. MS, PF, FDI, FDM, and SMS coins are all being analyzed. The MS scores, in particular, were reflecting unreasonably high numbers for quite some time, and we have them reflecting correctly now.

 

Any positive or negative change to a score of a coin filters across all owners of similar coins and all sets. We apologize for any inconvenience. Thank you.

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I TOO FEEL DUPED! I PUT A LOT OF TIME MONEY AND EFFORT INTO THESE PRESIDENT SETS TO HAVE THE BEST SETS FOR RETIREMENT/INVESTMENT. I NEVER DREAMED POINTS WOULD GO DOWN. ESPECIALLY BY THAT MUCH. USUALLY POINTS GO UP ON COINS OVER TIME. I MEAN, THINK OF THE REACTION IF NGC DID THAT TO SIX MILE RICK OR RHF OR ANY OTHER BIG COLLECTOR ON SAY MORGAN DOLLARS OR WALKERS. THE FEEDBACK FROM THEM AND ALL COLLECTORS OF THOSE COINS WOULD BE VERY HUGE!!! I THINK I NEED TO RE-THINK MY "NGC ONLY" CONCEPT. I REALLY FEEL NGC GRAGING IS TOP NOTCH AND FAIR BUT I IN NO WAY EVER EXPECTED THIS TO HAPPEN. THEY NEED TO FIRE THE GUY THAT DECIDED THIS OR BUY MY PRESIDENT COINS FROM ME FOR ABOUT $10,000.00 THAT WOULD BE FAIR.

I GOT THESE SETS AND COINS FOR RETIREMENT INVESTMENT AND WHEN PEOPLE SEE LOW POINTS THEY TEND TO ASSOCIATE THAT WITH VALUE. NOW I FEEL LIKE I GOT RIPPED OFF BY NGC DOING THIS. WHY WAIT TEN YEARS THEN CHANGE IT AS THE SERIES IS ENDING. I AM REALLY REALLY PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS!!!

 

ROBERT

Edited by Seafury007

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The person or group that decided this should be FIRED! Your companies coin management points assignment division waited ten years and at the end of the series to decide this!? There is something fishy going on here. You owe me $10,000.00 for my investment as far as I am concerned. I have that much into the sets and feel you just made the sets worth 1/10th that. People associate points with dollars. Why don't you try this with Morgan Dollars or say Walking Liberty or Franklin Halves. Try dropping their points across the board by 70 to 80% and see what happens! I dare you.

I need to rethink my NGC ONLY concept. I do NGC only because I feel you have the best strictist grading. I never dreamed you would drop the points of my coins like this on me.

 

Mr. Robert Clark

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-17,000+ points on my Satin Dollars #1 set. Been #1 for at least 4 years. Now i feel like its #1 Poop.

 

Robert

Edited by Seafury007

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I TOO FEEL DUPED! I PUT A LOT OF TIME MONEY AND EFFORT INTO THESE PRESIDENT SETS TO HAVE THE BEST SETS FOR RETIREMENT/INVESTMENT. I NEVER DREAMED POINTS WOULD GO DOWN. ESPECIALLY BY THAT MUCH. USUALLY POINTS GO UP ON COINS OVER TIME. I MEAN, THINK OF THE REACTION IF NGC DID THAT TO SIX MILE RICK OR RHF OR ANY OTHER BIG COLLECTOR ON SAY MORGAN DOLLARS OR WALKERS. THE FEEDBACK FROM THEM AND ALL COLLECTORS OF THOSE COINS WOULD BE VERY HUGE!!! I THINK I NEED TO RE-THINK MY "NGC ONLY" CONCEPT. I REALLY FEEL NGC GRAGING IS TOP NOTCH AND FAIR BUT I IN NO WAY EVER EXPECTED THIS TO HAPPEN. THEY NEED TO FIRE THE GUY THAT DECIDED THIS OR BUY MY PRESIDENT COINS FROM ME FOR ABOUT $10,000.00 THAT WOULD BE FAIR.

I GOT THESE SETS AND COINS FOR RETIREMENT INVESTMENT AND WHEN PEOPLE SEE LOW POINTS THEY TEND TO ASSOCIATE THAT WITH VALUE. NOW I FEEL LIKE I GOT RIPPED OFF BY NGC DOING THIS. WHY WAIT TEN YEARS THEN CHANGE IT AS THE SERIES IS ENDING. I AM REALLY REALLY PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS!!!

 

ROBERT

 

The coins you bought will end up being a good or bad investment, independently of how many points they receive in a registry set.

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"I PUT A LOT OF TIME MONEY AND EFFORT INTO THESE PRESIDENT SETS TO HAVE THE BEST SETS FOR RETIREMENT/INVESTMENT."

 

That's mistake #1.

Expecting any "register set" points to be of monetary value is mistake #2.

Turing a pleasurable activity into greed-fueled speculation is mistake #3.

 

From the various comments, it appears NGC is treating all participants equally.

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RWB, exactly. My long winded post in the other thread was trying to say pretty much the same.

 

Points don't have monetary value and don't get you to retirement.

 

In the non-US spectrum I have paid anywhere from 10% to 150% in dollars vs points. Points Do Not Equate To Value. Correlate,maybe, as a rare coin may be more costly, but looking at a set of points won't give me a dollar value on the coin today, or in 20 years when I might sell.

 

Coin collecting is not retirement planning.

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This is at least the third thread by the OP on this topic.

 

To summarize:

 

No one was duped.

 

Of all the series, whether from the US or elsewhere, the only one I can think of which might be more common is SQ. A post above indicates they lost 51,000 points. Given how common these coins actually are and the examples I previously provided, the points awarded should be fewer than just about every other one.

 

As to the idea of buying or collecting these coins for retirement, there is no reason to believe that they will be worth substantially more in the future. The far more likely outcome is that years from now, the series will be mostly forgotten.

 

None of these posters have stated it, but it seems to me that somehow, those who collected registry points first and coins second obtained satisfaction from seeing their ranking higher than many other registry sets whose collections are actually a lot better. Otherwise, as Condor stated in another one of these topics, the only thing that should matter is whether consistency is maintained within the series, not how it compares to others. A few comments here have referenced this, but I don't see it in the original complaint and even if true, I don't see that it requires multiple threads to air a complaint that was already communicated to NGC through their customer service.

 

 

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Personally, I feel that the coins in question were way over valued, as far as points go. Not sure why NGC assigned them such high points in the first place. hm The points were adjusted fairly, as everyone's set was affected and not just the OP's. More will continue to be graded as time wears on making them even more common. 2c

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In the short run this may be a disaster for a few people but in the longer term it could actually be beneficial if it more closely matches the way people collect and attracts more interest.

 

I should think even in the short run the effects may not be as draconian as they appear now. Not everyone who collects these collects them for the registry and even here some will still prefer the finest examples.

 

Huge changes certainly should be avoided and I feel sympathy for those who are going to lose money because of this.

 

It's a shame one can't define his own registry set so changes like this don't affect them. Of course then every set would be unique. ;)

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...Huge changes certainly should be avoided and I feel sympathy for those who are going to lose money because of this.

 

 

I'm not convinced that anyone is going to lose money because of this. If money is lost, I believe it will be due to increases in populations and/or lower demand, but not due to reduced point totals.

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I'm not convinced that anyone is going to lose money because of this. If money is lost, I believe it will be due to increases in populations and/or lower demand, but not due to reduced point totals.

 

I hope you're right.

 

It's gotta be a little scary for someone losing a lot of points in relation to the total amount spent.

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It isn't a disaster for anyone. The OP and a few comments are making a big deal out of a nonissue.

 

Comparing the number of registry sets to the population counts, it is a small fraction. The number of points assigned doesn't have anything to do with collecting. I acknowledge that a very low minority of collectors in some series are motivated by their ranking in the registry competition but this is independent of the absolute number of points awarded. So I agree with your second point.

 

I agree with Mark and don't believe anyone will lose any money for it unless buyers of "grade rarities" think in these terms. To the extent this is true, it will only prove that coin collecting wasn't their primary motivation.

 

I also don't have any sympathy for anyone loses money with these coins as there is both no noticeable difference with a slightly lower grade and zero reason to believe that what are actually among the most overpriced coins (highest grades) should become a lot more valuable.

 

To your last point, there is an option to create a customized signature set. You just don't accumulate registry points for it

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To your last point, there is an option to create a customized signature set. You just don't accumulate registry points for it

 

I wasn't aware of this. Maybe when I start slabbing coins I'll try a couple sets.

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Hi Mark,

 

Thank you for the reply. It comforts me somewhat since my sets are #1 NGC registry sets. An I believe the First Day Issue higher grades I have will definitely hold value as there will never be First Day Issue grading possible on them EVER.

 

Robert

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They have busted my a s s a half dozen times in the last couple years. Not by lowering but over raising the points for 40s and 50s cents by what I think is an extreme amount. I have gone to asleep in one rank and awoke in the morning 3 ranks lower. My set has a large amount of pre 1930 CAC Lincolns. I have seen other members who's strong points are 1940 and 1950s cents and above. In one case one set was increased by 26,000 points another 23,000+. mine went up just a little over 400. Now I don't build my sets for the registry but it is fun to play the game. Have a friend who also collects Lincolns and we were playing who could catch the other and I was 1 ranking behind I woke up the next morning and was 4 ranks behind and it all because he got 26,000 points for a bunch of 1950s cents. I have a 1914 d in MS 65 red CAC and it might have gone up a couple hundred points in the last year, and during the same time period I have seen 1950s cents go up thousands. Sure makes the friendly competition with my friend one sided. So you modern collectors are not the only ones feeling the sting.

 

 

Edited by wheat'swheats

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Hi Mark,

 

Thank you for the reply. It comforts me somewhat since my sets are #1 NGC registry sets. An I believe the First Day Issue higher grades I have will definitely hold value as there will never be First Day Issue grading possible on them EVER.

 

Robert

 

Robert,

You have some great sets!! All though the points were re-assessed for everyone in the registry area your sets contain the finest NGC graded coins available for the series.

 

Congrats (thumbs u

 

Rick

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Thank you sir! Now guess what? They added proof first day issue to my BU set and retitled it to First day Issue, Complete!!! AHHHHH!!!!! Please see my other post. I swear they are trying to pass the torch!

 

Robert

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I'm not convinced that anyone is going to lose money because of this. If money is lost, I believe it will be due to increases in populations and/or lower demand, but not due to reduced point totals.

 

I hope you're right.

 

It's gotta be a little scary for someone losing a lot of points in relation to the total amount spent.

 

In my (intentionally) limited experience with registry sets, points have only a vague connection to either value or rarity.

 

But if they did: the change in assigned points is a reflection of forces already at work; i.e., changing market conditions resulting in lower demand and values; not a device to actually lower the values of the coins.

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Well, they are worth $1 each....better than "penny stocks" and just as good a financial investment....

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