Good Binion Deal? Good Long Term Investment?
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I bought this 4 coin Binion set labeled by NGC for $75. There were two reasons I bought this. 1.) price appeared low for other related 4 coin Binion sets, and, 2.) looked like a good "long term" investment with interesting, albeit, dark history. Those not familiar with the history please refer to link.

 

http://www.coinweek.com/education/pedigrees-hoards-the-binion-hoard/

 

 

I understand the allure to owning coins that have a provenance related to numismatic connoisseurs such as Newman or a Pogue. My question; is there any value with investing in a past bandit? Was this a good deal?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252258195261?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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When it comes to buying coins, you gotta ask yourself one question... Are you happy with your purchase? If so, then great, you win.

 

If not, then it's no good and you shouldn't buy.

 

For me personally I look at & consider the coin when I buy. It has nothing to do with labels/holders/etc...

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AHFreak, yes I'm happy, I feel I got a pretty darn good deal. However, I'm curious to know if this is good money spent for a set of coins related to this bandit, and how it might relate to other collectors for long term investment based upon what I did spend with aforementioned tainted pedigree. Is this a good deal- long and short? Value in past bandits?

 

Thanks!

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Since you asked, I think it was a bad deal and a bad long term investment.

 

I don't think the labels add any appreciable value and don't know why the coins would appreciate. They are neither rare nor of particularly desirable quality.

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MarkFeld, I agree with your observations. There would probably be slight premium above melt on these coins. Nothing superb about them- understood.... The association with a history concerning a hoard of coins with a known Las Vegas bandit in your opinion has no added value. NGC apparently felt there was...to a degree, or was willing to hedge that bet! At least worth the $75 though...

 

Thanks for response.

Edited by PocketArt

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I bought this 4 coin Binion set labeled by NGC for $75. There were two reasons I bought this. 1.) price appeared low for other related 4 coin Binion sets, and, 2.) looked like a good "long term" investment with interesting, albeit, dark history. Those not familiar with the history please refer to link.

 

http://www.coinweek.com/education/pedigrees-hoards-the-binion-hoard/

 

 

I understand the allure to owning coins that have a provenance related to numismatic connoisseurs such as Newman or a Pogue. My question; is there any value with investing in a past bandit? Was this a good deal?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252258195261?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think that it was a bad price. After all, it is doubly collectible. Don't forget that Benny was the casino owner who started the WSOP.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld, I agree with your observations. There would probably be slight premium above melt on these coins. Nothing superb about them- understood.... The association with a history concerning a hoard of coins with a known Las Vegas bandit in your opinion has no added value. NGC apparently felt there was...to a degree, or was willing to hedge that bet! At least worth the $75 though...

 

Thanks for response.

 

I don't think NGC needs to believe a grading label with a particular name adds value, in order to utilize such label.

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Now that's cool! I din't know what WSOP acronym was till I looked it up- "World Series of Poker." Neat info Chris. That's what I like about this board: it forces me to do my own research; great and small.

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"I don't think NGC needs to believe a grading label with a particular name adds value, in order to utilize such label."

 

 

A bit lost with this reasoning; however, I "think" I understand. If wrong on interpreted response- please let me know.

 

If I correctly follow what you are saying I disagree, they, "NGC," understood the history added value to these coins, or, they wouldn't have added the Binion name to the label. It's the history behind the name which led to the label, and entered the market with the intention of selling the history and not as much the lack of rarity of the coin (s). History + 4 coins = value added coins with history; so long as they stay in slabs. And, there are only 2500 sets of these...at least this particular series.

 

Thanks MarkFeld.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by PocketArt

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"I don't think NGC needs to believe a grading label with a particular name adds value, in order to utilize such label."

 

 

A bit lost with this reasoning; however, I "think" I understand. If wrong on interpreted response- please let me know.

 

If I correctly follow what you are saying I disagree, they, "NGC," understood the history added value to these coins, or, they wouldn't have added the Binion name to the label. It's the history behind the name which led to the label, and entered the market with the intention of selling the history and not as much the lack of rarity of the coin (s). History + 4 coins = value added coins with history; so long as they stay in slabs. And, there are only 2500 sets of these...at least this particular series.

 

Thanks MarkFeld.

 

He means that just because NGC has made a special label for something, doesn't mean it will become valuable. While a cool story, supply and demand dictate any collectible. These are not hard to find. But at $75 there isn't much downside paying for what you think is cool. Meaning you cant lose $5000 on a $75 purchase. As an absolute value you may have paid $10-15 more than finding them yourself. Not a big deal. Just don't expect any upside.So to answer the investment part of this, no its not a good investment. Just enjoy it for what it is and accept you paid a little premium for it, no big deal.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mumu

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Yes, NGC, or the other couple of reputable third party graders are not concerned about value nor do they consider value (past/present/future) when they add something to a Iabel like these Binions coins you bought. .. they are a grading company, they make money only when they grade/encapsulate coins, it's all about marketing my friend, and as long as you or me or someone else has the want to get coins slabbed with something special or different or catchy on the label, they will be there to get paid for offering such a service.

 

Now, as far as value. .. I mentioned earlier that I personally do not consider the label, no matter what it is when buying coins. I buy the coins period.. with that said, these labels add zero value to me, so in my opinion, the coins in the slabs are worth melt or whatever you can get someone to pay for pre1965 UNC silver. Id pay melt for these coins and nothing more. Usually UNC Morgans and Peace dollars do trade for a small premium above melt, but we are talking a couple/few bucks, not much more. To me, thesee labels add zero, in the past, the present and forever onto the future.

That said, as long as people perceive an added value in the "Binions" labels, then you did just fine... that's what I love about coins, there are many many many different strokes for all ya'll different folks! Some of the things I really truly get giddy over make certain members here roll their eyes and want to puke a little, and I respect that. It's all about personal preference and as long as you buy what you enjoy and enjoy what you buy, then the hobby can be a long term fun-box that keeps on giving back to the collector in the form of enjoyment. Among other things

 

 

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"I don't think NGC needs to believe a grading label with a particular name adds value, in order to utilize such label."

 

 

A bit lost with this reasoning; however, I "think" I understand. If wrong on interpreted response- please let me know.

 

If I correctly follow what you are saying I disagree, they, "NGC," understood the history added value to these coins, or, they wouldn't have added the Binion name to the label. It's the history behind the name which led to the label, and entered the market with the intention of selling the history and not as much the lack of rarity of the coin (s). History + 4 coins = value added coins with history; so long as they stay in slabs. And, there are only 2500 sets of these...at least this particular series.

 

Thanks MarkFeld.

 

 

 

Folks buy hoards of coins. As you see in the linked page you provided, this hoard was purchased by Spectrum Numismatic International (SNI). SNI in turn assigned the hoard to Goldline International, Inc to sell.

 

What better way to sell a large hoard of coins than to have a story written and published and then get a TPG to "design" a special label for each of the coins for marketing puposes?

 

If I found a hoard of Gold Coins from the 1800's on my property, I could do the exact same thing to "maximize" my profits through effective marketing and, personally, I am a nobody. An absolute nobody.

 

If you recall, a hoard of gold coins WAS found here in the California Gold Country and when the story hit the news, the market got primed. Heavily Primed since, I really wanted one of the pieces myself. BUT, each piece was nearly DOUBLE the listed Price Guide value for a comparable "non-special label" piece.

 

Did the story add value? For the gold coins it did and PCGS happily complied with the request from the agency assigned to sell the coins with a special label.

 

Will those coins be able to attract those double market premiums in the future? Possibly. That is, until some other hoard is found and buyer attention gets diverted to some new story.

 

The entire point of the post is that "Binion" was a nobody. The only history he had was the fact that he buried his coins and then got himself murdered by those that arrange the burying of those coins. He wasn't a notable numismatist and at the very minimum the set you purchased isn't even graded. In short, there simply is nothing special, from an investment standpoint, about the set. The fact that you paid $75 for it says a lot. The fact that they do not carry a minimum grade also says a lot in that the coins are low end for even grading consideration.

 

A quick search of Heritage shows that many coins within the collection DID receive a numeric grade which looks like a minimum MS64. Anything less just got an "Uncirculated".

 

In other words, a typical marketing scenario.

 

If YOU like what you bought then great BUT do not expect these to appreciate in value over time.

 

For comparisons purposes, the coin below sold for $61 including the Buyers premium in 2013 and it was graded MS64.

 

1923 Peace Dollar

 

This one, an MS65, sold for $146.88 in 2013.

 

1923 Peace Dollar MS65

 

BOTH coins were below actual market value which basically states that the label was pretty much meaningless. I expect the same to be true in the future.

 

It "might" be different if Binion had been a well known numismatist with a well planned and carefully acquired collection, but this just wasn't the case. He was nothing more than a hoarder of which there are countless thousands of those around.

 

Of course, you are free to believe whatever you want but your beliefs certainly aren't going to change the long term value and/or collectability of a "Binion" coin.

 

Have a great day!

 

PS, I forgot to mention that the TPG's will create pretty much any label you want if you provide them with enough coins to male it worth there while.

 

PCGS even offers free "Pedigree's" for Registry Sets that are within the Top 5.

 

IKE1971-SLydston72956833PCGSPR69DCAMSlabObvW.jpg

 

No real value added.

Edited by 19Lyds

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"I don't think NGC needs to believe a grading label with a particular name adds value, in order to utilize such label."

 

 

A bit lost with this reasoning; however, I "think" I understand. If wrong on interpreted response- please let me know.

 

If I correctly follow what you are saying I disagree, they, "NGC," understood the history added value to these coins, or, they wouldn't have added the Binion name to the label. It's the history behind the name which led to the label, and entered the market with the intention of selling the history and not as much the lack of rarity of the coin (s). History + 4 coins = value added coins with history; so long as they stay in slabs. And, there are only 2500 sets of these...at least this particular series.

 

Thanks MarkFeld.

 

The short version: Labels are marketing. If you pay the fee, you get a label. NGC has no opinion on the validity - anyone who pays enough will get a label. If you bought the label, you bought the marketing.

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"I don't think NGC needs to believe a grading label with a particular name adds value, in order to utilize such label."

 

 

A bit lost with this reasoning; however, I "think" I understand. If wrong on interpreted response- please let me know.

 

If I correctly follow what you are saying I disagree, they, "NGC," understood the history added value to these coins, or, they wouldn't have added the Binion name to the label. It's the history behind the name which led to the label, and entered the market with the intention of selling the history and not as much the lack of rarity of the coin (s). History + 4 coins = value added coins with history; so long as they stay in slabs. And, there are only 2500 sets of these...at least this particular series.

 

 

 

I don't believe NGC added the label because it adds any value either. They did so to market the coins.

 

In response to your original question, I don't consider what you bought to be an "investment" in the sense you should expect any appreciation. Your outlay of $75 is nominal and as long as you treat it as an alternative form of consumption, you won't be disappointed.

 

In this reply of yours, I believe you provided the best reason why they won't appreciate. You mention there are "only" 2500 sets. I don't see that there are or will be 2500 collectors of this personalities memorabilia who will ever consider this coin set a "must have" where they will pay a lot more for it. I'm not familiar with this person but the association doesn't seem to be significant. Coin collectors disproportionately won't either.

 

It reminds me of memorabilia form the Jacquelin Kennedy estate which sold for "big money" upon her death. To my knowledge, most have lost a lot of value.

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In the raw, that's probably $45 worth of coins, max. So while it's not a ripoff by any stretch, i certainly wouldn't call it a deal either. As long as it makes you happy is all that matters.

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And, there are only 2500 sets of these...at least this particular series.

Something else about the marketing of large hoards such as these. Once they have slabbed all 2500 pieces in that "set" they submit another 2500 and start over again with 1 of 2500. You have no way of knowing how many of those 2500 coin "sets" were made.

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I think everyone quite accurately answered your question here.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think it was a bad deal. Upside potential, probably not,

'Notoriety factor', well worth what you paid (IMHO).

I would pay this premium if a coin was attributed to Dr. Richard Kimbal....but that's me....

 

Paul

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Not mentioned, but important from my small perspective, is the coins should be examined for varieties. Even though the picture was not all that good, I detect a Vam chance on the PD.

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Very humbled with all this good and insightful information by all posters! I honestly didn't consider TPG's standpoint in the process of labeling coins- MarkFeld, I now fully comprehend what you intended to convey and thanks for other posters to help clarify.

 

In the past, I've presumed that if a TPG had a special label, or, a grade on a coin, that would be pretty close to a "true north" in all respects. Meaning, the grade, authenticity, pedigree, and importance of provenance. This I thought correlated to a general consensus with collectors and therefore was understood and recognized. So, the "Binion hoard" I had the presumption that these coins already had implied numismatic value in the collecting community, and they were offered to the public based upon the so called "hoard" phenomenon. I honestly thought there was intrinsic value in these based on my presumptions...I hate to use assumptions in this but might as well apply too! I've been a serious collector for past 5 years and passive interest in the hobby the previous 25 years that centered around a Red Book then...so, many thanks for everyone's knowledge!

 

To sum up my purchasing impulse last night; I didn't consider a TPG marketing as much of a demand, I thought there was already great demand for hoards among collectors and the intrinsic value would increase over time.

 

Thanks again for all previous post's and a great learning experience all around! I will be sure to check Peace Dollar for possible VAM- something new to explore!

 

Rich

 

 

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Very humbled with all this good and insightful information by all posters! I honestly didn't consider TPG's standpoint in the process of labeling coins- MarkFeld, I now fully comprehend what you intended to convey and thanks for other posters to help clarify.

 

In the past, I've presumed that if a TPG had a special label, or, a grade on a coin, that would be pretty close to a "true north" in all respects. Meaning, the grade, authenticity, pedigree, and importance of provenance. This I thought correlated to a general consensus with collectors and therefore was understood and recognized. So, the "Binion hoard" I had the presumption that these coins already had implied numismatic value in the collecting community, and they were offered to the public based upon the so called "hoard" phenomenon. I honestly thought there was intrinsic value in these based on my presumptions...I hate to use assumptions in this but might as well apply too! I've been a serious collector for past 5 years and passive interest in the hobby the previous 25 years that centered around a Red Book then...so, many thanks for everyone's knowledge!

 

To sum up my purchasing impulse last night; I didn't consider a TPG marketing as much of a demand, I thought there was already great demand for hoards among collectors and the intrinsic value would increase over time.

 

Thanks again for all previous post's and a great learning experience all around! I will be sure to check Peace Dollar for possible VAM- something new to explore!

 

Rich

 

 

You have a great attitude and sound like an open-minded gentleman. Enjoy your collecting. (thumbs u

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Very good exchange of information in this post. Nice work!

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So, I actually own several Roosevelt dimes from the Binion hoard...

 

2j518qf.jpg

 

I have a few Washington quarters from the Binion collection too. But my main collecting focus is silver Roosevelt dimes, so I have these as part of a curiosity in my collection overall.

 

Someone said that Ted Binion 'was a nobody'. I don't disagree with that. But I think there's a larger more generalized appeal to the whole Binion story, which does add value to the coins.

 

The Binion story both directly and indirectly involves a nice, wide amalgamation of vices: gambling, drugs, sex, the mob, murder, conspiracy, etc.

 

And I'd argue that there is a demand in society to hear (and in this case own a piece of) a story of vice, rebellion, and self-servingness.... and the consequences (or lack thereof) of all that.

 

The Binion story covers most of the bases pretty well.

 

I would guess that that the whole construct of the pragmatic, yet morally ambiguous, anti-hero (like the mafia, secret societies, or the Man With No Name) appeals to a rebellious, self-serving side of humanity. And, I think, maybe, like it or not, these things appeal to human beings. I mean come on...

 

334uoti.png

 

Ok, so here's where I back-peddle a little bit...

 

I am absolutely NOT comparing the coolness factors of Ted Binion to the Man With No Name. Nor am I saying that Binion was some kind of criminal mastermind...he clearly was not.

 

I'm saying that the general appeal is similar...the appeal to vice, rebellion, and self-servingness.

 

I'd say the same thing about the D.B. Cooper story... Although I think the D.B. Cooper story is a million times cooler and more interesting, the Binion tale also involves rampant criminal behavior. In this way, I'd say the D.B. Cooper story and Ted Binion's are similar and share an overarching appeal.

 

So I'd conclude that this general appeal to vice, rebellion, and self-servingness certainly exists among people. And it's unlikely to cease. And there are plenty of things in the Binion story that contribute to this general appeal. So I'd say this general appeal does add at least some collector value to the Binion Hoard.

 

To Add: Another really good topical example is Gangsta Rap. Like it or not, in 2004 Forbes estimated it was a $10 billion a year industry. Who knows what it is today. There's even a sub-genre...mafioso rap...where the performer or their group takes on a mobster or organized crime persona. Point is, there's a market demand for this kind of thing.

Edited by Mr. Smith Guesser

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MarkFeld, I agree with your observations. There would probably be slight premium above melt on these coins. Nothing superb about them- understood.... The association with a history concerning a hoard of coins with a known Las Vegas bandit in your opinion has no added value. NGC apparently felt there was...to a degree, or was willing to hedge that bet! At least worth the $75 though...

 

Thanks for response.

 

I feel you are not interpreting NGC's role in this process correctly. Here is my take (and ICG, ANACS, PCGS have also done similar type things)->

 

big promotion company talks to someone at NGC and asks "How much to put 10000 coins in genuine slabs with my special label? No grading required"

 

If you go to eBay and try to get similar condition dollar, half, quarter, dime - you could probably do it without much difficulty for under $30 with silver near $14/oz.

 

So do you feel the packaging and story is worth $45? some people do...

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Might be getting off of topic just a little bit...

 

But one side note about NGC's Binion Collection...

 

I have seen (and still own some) several examples of Denver-mint Roosevelts and Washingtons, where the mintmark is not designated on the label. Meanwhile others do have the "D" designation. From my collection...

 

1963-D Binion Roosevelt with "D" designation on label: 179671-078

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/179671-078/

1963-D Binion Roosevelt without "D" designation on label: 2044304-042

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2044304-042/

 

I could add photos, but you wouldn't be able to see both sides of the slab at the same time. And this is not the only one. Like I've said, I've seen at least four Roosevelts and two Washingtons with the label error. And, yeah, I've probably owned more Binion coins than most people, but I haven't owned enough to just make it a rare occurrence by any means.

 

It should also be noted that I've only seen them on the Uncirculated Type Set number to 2,500. I've never own a MS graded Binion coin. In fact, I've never even seen an MS graded Binion Roosevelt. So my experience is limited to the coins I've had from the uncirculated collection of 2,500.

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A couple of those 'complete sets' have sold for $150 in last couple months so there is a market

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A couple of those 'complete sets' have sold for $150 in last couple months so there is a market

 

A market, sure. After all the coins in the holders (at least the ones shown Here) are the most widely collected on the planet with maybe 50,000 to several hundred thousand active set collectors if the active US collector base is 2MM.

 

Financial potential? Depends upon the definition.

 

I believe its minimal because the coins are not compelling enough and neither is the story behind this personality. It might be "interesting" but don't see why collectors would care longer term anymore than the public does for one of those dopey "celebrities" on a cable "reality TV" show which are a dime a dozen.

 

Other posts here have compared it to the signature labels. Another comparison would be to pedigrees for prominent collections. Some to my knowledge sell for a noticeable premium but I have never heard it is widespread. Even for Eliasberg which surely must have a wider following than Binion, how many of his coins do?

 

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So, I actually own several Roosevelt dimes from the Binion hoard...

 

2j518qf.jpg

 

I have a few Washington quarters from the Binion collection too. But my main collecting focus is silver Roosevelt dimes, so I have these as part of a curiosity in my collection overall.

 

Someone said that Ted Binion 'was a nobody'. I don't disagree with that. But I think there's a larger more generalized appeal to the whole Binion story, which does add value to the coins.

 

The Binion story both directly and indirectly involves a nice, wide amalgamation of vices: gambling, drugs, sex, the mob, murder, conspiracy, etc.

 

And I'd argue that there is a demand in society to hear (and in this case own a piece of) a story of vice, rebellion, and self-servingness.... and the consequences (or lack thereof) of all that.

 

The Binion story covers most of the bases pretty well.

 

I would guess that that the whole construct of the pragmatic, yet morally ambiguous, anti-hero (like the mafia, secret societies, or the Man With No Name) appeals to a rebellious, self-serving side of humanity. And, I think, maybe, like it or not, these things appeal to human beings. I mean come on...

 

334uoti.png

 

Ok, so here's where I back-peddle a little bit...

 

I am absolutely NOT comparing the coolness factors of Ted Binion to the Man With No Name. Nor am I saying that Binion was some kind of criminal mastermind...he clearly was not.

 

I'm saying that the general appeal is similar...the appeal to vice, rebellion, and self-servingness.

 

I'd say the same thing about the D.B. Cooper story... Although I think the D.B. Cooper story is a million times cooler and more interesting, the Binion tale also involves rampant criminal behavior. In this way, I'd say the D.B. Cooper story and Ted Binion's are similar and share an overarching appeal.

 

So I'd conclude that this general appeal to vice, rebellion, and self-servingness certainly exists among people. And it's unlikely to cease. And there are plenty of things in the Binion story that contribute to this general appeal. So I'd say this general appeal does add at least some collector value to the Binion Hoard.

 

To Add: Another really good topical example is Gangsta Rap. Like it or not, in 2004 Forbes estimated it was a $10 billion a year industry. Who knows what it is today. There's even a sub-genre...mafioso rap...where the performer or their group takes on a mobster or organized crime persona. Point is, there's a market demand for this kind of thing.

You are absolutely correct in that there will always be folks that are curious about what happened. BUT, the investment train left the station on these a couple of years back when the marketing ended.

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A couple of those 'complete sets' have sold for $150 in last couple months so there is a market

 

There will always be pockets of variance and circumstance that can alter price. Anything can be a good investment if you are good at finding idyots.

Edited by mumu

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So, I actually own several Roosevelt dimes from the Binion hoard...

 

2j518qf.jpg

 

I have a few Washington quarters from the Binion collection too. But my main collecting focus is silver Roosevelt dimes, so I have these as part of a curiosity in my collection overall.

 

Someone said that Ted Binion 'was a nobody'. I don't disagree with that. But I think there's a larger more generalized appeal to the whole Binion story, which does add value to the coins.

 

The Binion story both directly and indirectly involves a nice, wide amalgamation of vices: gambling, drugs, sex, the mob, murder, conspiracy, etc.

 

And I'd argue that there is a demand in society to hear (and in this case own a piece of) a story of vice, rebellion, and self-servingness.... and the consequences (or lack thereof) of all that.

 

The Binion story covers most of the bases pretty well.

 

I would guess that that the whole construct of the pragmatic, yet morally ambiguous, anti-hero (like the mafia, secret societies, or the Man With No Name) appeals to a rebellious, self-serving side of humanity. And, I think, maybe, like it or not, these things appeal to human beings. I mean come on...

 

334uoti.png

 

Ok, so here's where I back-peddle a little bit...

 

I am absolutely NOT comparing the coolness factors of Ted Binion to the Man With No Name. Nor am I saying that Binion was some kind of criminal mastermind...he clearly was not.

 

I'm saying that the general appeal is similar...the appeal to vice, rebellion, and self-servingness.

 

I'd say the same thing about the D.B. Cooper story... Although I think the D.B. Cooper story is a million times cooler and more interesting, the Binion tale also involves rampant criminal behavior. In this way, I'd say the D.B. Cooper story and Ted Binion's are similar and share an overarching appeal.

 

So I'd conclude that this general appeal to vice, rebellion, and self-servingness certainly exists among people. And it's unlikely to cease. And there are plenty of things in the Binion story that contribute to this general appeal. So I'd say this general appeal does add at least some collector value to the Binion Hoard.

 

To Add: Another really good topical example is Gangsta Rap. Like it or not, in 2004 Forbes estimated it was a $10 billion a year industry. Who knows what it is today. There's even a sub-genre...mafioso rap...where the performer or their group takes on a mobster or organized crime persona. Point is, there's a market demand for this kind of thing.

You are absolutely correct in that there will always be folks that are curious about what happened. BUT, the investment train left the station on these a couple of years back when the marketing ended.

 

I'd bet that you could get a pretty good price for them from players in the WSOP. These guys & gals think nothing of dropping $10K for a poker tournament, so why not buy one as a card marker!

 

Chris

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