Return requested after over 90 days?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I got this message from a customer overnight on a May 20 transaction, he said, but there is no way for me to verify this because ebay obliterates records after 90 days.

 

"I see that you are a trusted member of ANA, PCGS, NGC AND CAC so I was hoping that I could discuss an issue with you about a coin I purchased from you...earlier today I was quite upset when I took a coin that I purchased from you on 5-20-15 to get appraised (giving as a wedding present later this month) at a trusted local coin dealer and found out that they think that whomever sold it to me greatly misrepresented the coin when selling.I asked what was so objectionable about the coin and he insisted that it seemed to have been cleaned on the obverse.I asked what made him think such a thing and he compared the coin that I was sold to others he had in the shop and there was quite a difference.He told me that if I purchased it from a reapritable (sic) dealer that I would have no problem returning or replacing.I then took the coin to another trusted coin shop to get a second opinion and was immediately told the same thing.I hope that we can discuss possible resolutions.

Thank You"

 

This is the 1881 $5 Liberty gold coin NGC MS64, http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2654065-001

 

If I remember the coin right, it was fresh and original looking, he forwarded some edge on images.

 

I spoke with ebay and they said they have no records and the guarantee only goes back 30 days, though the guy could I suppose try something with his credit card?

 

My response:

 

Hi--I just contacted ebay to see how they handle situations like this and they said that they have no records going back more than 90 days (don't ask me why) and that their money back guarantee only goes back 30 days. So I don't have any way to pull up records on this transaction. Certified coins are backed by NGC and PCGS and their guarantees which you can review on their site. Grading is an art not a science, and some positive factors can be counter-acted by minor issues therefore the grading services make judgment calls and weigh strike, luster, marks, hairlines, copper spots, toning, etc. in the grade. Three graders looked at that coin as well as the finalizer and determined it was an MS64 $5 gold coin. Companies like Heritage Auctions and Rarcoa have active offers on that coin in common dates; Rarcoa is bidding those at $730 at this point for common dates, they may offer more for the better date. I don't have any other $5 Libs. in stock. I could call around on Tuesday after the weekend and see what the offers are if you want to sell it. Alternatively I would be willing to pay for NGCs guarantee evaluation fee on the coin and if they agree with you they will honor that with various options. I have tight buy/sell spreads, ebay costs me under 10% and I am always willing to take coins back in reasonable amounts of time but know no dealer who would just accept a return of a certified coin based on hearsay. I don't see any misrepresentation here and I'm sure that all the coin regulatory organizations in this business would agree with that.

 

How would others handle this?

[coinman_23885]

Keep all of your records including shipping information, PayPal invoices, etc., that you have. If he files a chargeback, you can present this information to the credit card company.

 

Insofar as this particular transaction is concerned, I would have simply told him the following (which is a shorter summary of what you wrote):

 

"All sales are final after the 14 day return period. The coin was certified and guaranteed by NGC, one of the top coin grading services. I suggest that you contact NGC for a remedy if you believe they overgraded the coin. Grading is an art not a science."

 

Alternatively, you could always offer to buy the piece back at whatever the current wholesale bid is (i.e. price you would normally pay). This would not be a return per se. Make sure that you adjust for recent slumps in gold prices as I am sure that probably has had an effect on pricing these (I haven't tracked this segment of the market in the last several weeks).

[Nutmeg Coin]

He said his purchase price was $775 so a good deal for him but as usual many shops specialize in severely criticizing material that walks through the door.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Ebay dumps tons of email on me whenever I sell something. Any chance it is hiding in your email? I guess you remember the transaction well enough.

 

I've driven my cars 9,000 miles since he bought this coin. Its been awhile.

[wdrob]

but there is no way for me to verify this because ebay obliterates records after 90 days.

 

You can find that information quite easy. I stand corrected. It seems as though the links they provide are dead ends as you stated. I tried searching using the item number and that did not work for 2014.

 

Go to My eBay>Account>Sellers Account on the right hand side you will see a drop down for "Invoices" - select that and I can go all the way back to March 2014. In the invoices it has items that you sold, links to the listing, prices, etc..

 

Good luck!

 

 

[MarkFeld]

If, as you said, your buy-sell spread is less than 10%, I don't understand why you didn't make him an offer on the coin. And I wouldn't have mentioned regulatory agencies. Finally, footing the bill for an NGC grade guarantee review would likely be a waste of your money and drag out the problem, further.

[physics-fan3.14]

Several comments about this:

 

1.) I don't see anything wrong with the coin from the pictures. This is probably a case of buyers remorse.

 

2.) As a dealer, I am extremely surprised that you don't keep records of every sale. How do you do your taxes?

 

3.) After a reasonable period, I don't think you are beholden to offer a refund. It would seem like 14 days is reasonable, 30 days is extremely generous, and 90 days is just excessive. What's to stop some clown from coming back a year later and wanting a refund? The only case where this would be expected is if it were later determined that the coin was counterfeit (not likely in an NGC holder).

 

4.) After a reasonable return period, a high quality and reputable dealer should offer to repurchase any material previously sold at current market prices. This shows that you stand behind your product, and shows that you offer quality material that you believe in. Prices change, markets go up and down - its not your fault that the guy doesn't want it, but you should offer to repurchase it.

[orifdoc]

I would reply:

 

"My phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx. Call me."

[Walkerfan]

That coin does NOT look cleaned to me, although it does have a lot of marks/abrasions for a MS 64, which are plainly visible.

 

You are in no way obligated to issue a refund.

 

I would buy the coin back, only if I wanted to and, if it made economic sense to me. It would be a HUGE courtesy, at this point. I agree with the 'buyer's remorse' assessment, as that's what it sounds like to me. Only you know what you have into it and what you might be able to get for it. You are under no obligation to do that, either.

 

Make him the 75% buyback offer that was given to another member here by a well known dealer----I bet that will get rid of him.

[messydesk]

After a 14 day return period, I would buy back any coin sold, subject to current market conditions (i.e., do I need it, what can I sell it for, do I need the cash for something else).

[RWB]

Seems like the transaction closed long before the return request. Unless there are mitigating circumstances, you might or might not wish to make an offer for the coin. But not a refund of the purchase price.

 

Just a thought.

[bochiman]

How would I have handled it? Quite differently.

 

1) I keep all records of what I sell (and buy)...at least to a point of several years after I may no longer need them/haven't had the item.

 

2) I would have ignored the email after that amount of time. If it was truly written that way, I have doubts about validity of the person emailing....either that (s)he actually was the purchaser and/or that what was said to have happened, actually did......unless maybe the dealer was just one of those that likes to lowball/trash on coins not purchased from him.

 

3) If I did reply, I would have done so saying "after the amount of time that has occurred, I could not give an offer on a buyback of the coin. At best, maybe a flat out separate transaction with a purchase offer, but definitely not a buyback (ebay fees and paypal fees wouldn't be reimbursed, obviously, after this amount of time)

 

4) Also, I would say that, while I do screen my coins, the ones that are in NGC or PCGS plastic have an additional grade guarantee with compensation potential when working with the appropriate company that slabbed it initially. If he needed the contact info for the TPGS in question on that piece, I would have happily provided it.

 

As it is, the way you have replied......you talk too much.

Again, I would have ignored it in 99% of the cases (and I am someone who responds to EVERYONE on ANYTHING, usually). Not because I would have tried to hide or anything but because I would have been highly skeptical.

[coinman1794]

Random thoughts:

 

1) What is your standard return policy? If this request falls outside of that (it probably does), you are under no obligation, technically.

 

2) I would be very suspect of the two unnamed dealers who called this coin cleaned.

 

4) NGC does not charge for their Appearance Review service.

 

3) If it was a nice coin, make an offer to purchase it at the current wholesale rate. You have no obligation to do so, however.

 

4) Why don't you have a record of a possible $775 transaction for your taxes? Also, there should be a paypal transaction record, if that was his form of payment.

 

5) The coin is his, at this point. You may be able to sell it on his behalf, as a consignment, for a commission.

[MarkFeld]

Random thoughts:

...

 

4) NGC does not charge for their Appearance Review service.

 

 

Under the circumstances if there was a review it would be a grade-guarantee review. And if the grading company leaves the grade unchanged - they usually do - the submitter is charged.

[Houston Investor]

I don't accept returns after my 14 day return period and would dispute any action from him to force this.

 

I have never had this situation happen. I would first consult a close friend who is a paralegal and if need be she could refer me to the appropriate attorney especially if push comes to shove.

 

Any Buyback would be at wholesale, subject to current market conditions, and inventory needs. No disbursement would be made until the coin was received. However, considering his memo of negative comments supposedly from dealers both about myself and the coin, he would have burned that bridge with me.

 

Perhaps he tried to cross it (or upgrade) and wants his money back considering the big ticket nature of his purchase. Examining the photos the coin appears to be a nice solid for the grade NGC 64. It has nice luster and strike and the NGC price guide shows a market value of $1500. His threat of what other dealers think seems like some kind of Hail Mary Bluff considering the allegations. I would tell him I don't care what they think and for him to get lost.

 

Buyers Remorse comes in all shapes and forms. He may have decided a more suitable wedding present would have been a silver eagle for that year. Or the whole "wedding present" thing was some kind of manipulative nonsense. CDN Wholesale Bid on the coin is $775 - he probably shopped it around a show, got no more than a $700 offer and now he is coming back at you.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I told him to send it back to me and I would buy it minus the ebay/paypal expenses, etc.. I thought it was a nice frosty gold coin when I sold it and my judgment really hasn't changed. Thanks for the excellent feedback. And I have had gold coins get rejected as cleaned by NGC only to later grade MS64 at PCGS and CAC.

[coinman_23885]

I don't accept returns after my 14 day return period and would dispute any action from him to force this.

 

I have never had this situation happen. I would first consult a close friend who is a paralegal and if need be she could refer me to the appropriate attorney especially if push comes to shove.

 

Any Buyback would be at wholesale, subject to current market conditions, and inventory needs. No disbursement would be made until the coin was received. However, considering his memo of negative comments supposedly from dealers both about myself and the coin, he would have burned that bridge with me.

 

I agree with the quoted section except for the part in bold. The amount in controversy is so trivial that it would not be worth the attorney's fees and or other costs to explore legal remedies. In many jurisdictions, the American Rule would mean that you would eat your own attorney's fees which would easily exceed the $775 at stake. Of course, I am sure that this would also be subject to an arbitration clause through PayPal and/or the credit card company, which would make things messier and preclude small claims court.

[coinman1794]

Random thoughts:

...

 

4) NGC does not charge for their Appearance Review service.

 

 

Under the circumstances if there was a review it would be a grade-guarantee review. And if the grading company leaves the grade unchanged - they usually do - the submitter is charged.

 

Mark, that is the PCGS policy. NGC calls their grade-guarantee tier "Appearance Review," and it is free, regardless of the outcome. Over the years, I have had a very positive experience with NGC honoring their guarantee through either downgrade and payment, or conservation.

[MarkFeld]

Random thoughts:

...

 

4) NGC does not charge for their Appearance Review service.

 

 

Under the circumstances if there was a review it would be a grade-guarantee review. And if the grading company leaves the grade unchanged - they usually do - the submitter is charged.

 

Mark, that is the PCGS policy. NGC calls their grade-guarantee tier "Appearance Review," and it is free, regardless of the outcome. Over the years, I have had a very positive experience with NGC honoring their guarantee through either downgrade and payment, or conservation.

 

Thank you - that is good to know. I was mistaken.