1929-D Standing Liberty Quarter - raw NGC says "improperly cleaned"

[clarkbar04]

Super nice looking coin, obverse die has been polished like crazy and is mega reflective. (you can trace one up and through the R in Liberty) I can only imagine what happened to this one, must have been rusted a bit. Even the devices are polished. (yes, raised lines rather than cleaning lines) Reverse die is pretty new showing nice satiny and pebbly surfaces, and great detail. Closeup shot shows the head detail a bit better as well as a slew of die polish lines.

 

Not sure if this qualifies as FH or not - but all 3 feathers are visible, as well as an ear hole, and the hairline against the brow.

[KMAG100]

Don't really follow these, but the ones I have looked at this one looks real good to me...I'd go 66 fh....I have seen some with fh...that I think had less detail than this one...be interesting what the experts say

[clarkbar04]

I can only dream of ever being so fortunate - 66FH in this date and MM is an absolute moose. (retail is 6750 in 65FH and 18500 in 66FH)

 

 

[KMAG100]

I looked at a couple of the FH coins and you are probably right it will not qualify FH.....I still like the surface of the coin though.....I am looking at it off my phone, but the surface looks clean to me and the luster looks good. Its just my initial impression. However I have not looked at a lot of these because I don't follow them. It looks Gem Unc. to me

[James_OldeTowne]

I would guess MS-64.

[Coindude]

For some reason, to me, the coin looks cleaned, lightly wiped. It's too white and too shiny for me. As for FH, I think it's just shy.

[coinman_23885]

For some reason, to me, the coin looks cleaned, lightly wiped. It's too white and too shiny for me. As for FH, I think it's just shy.

 

I agree and especially on the reverse.

[clarkbar04]

I can see why you might think that, but heavy die polishing is what creates this. Check out my 1929-S thread for a heavily polished reverse.

 

Reverse of this coin is actually mint bloom white, this photo was shown this way to show the detail better.. Or because I only took one photo and just stuck with it.

 

(Reverse of 29-s; NGC 64)

 

[Raisethis2]

Looks like a very nice coin to me. I see a few marks on the belly area, knee and leg. Not bad at all.

 

MS 65 FH IMO.

[coinman_23885]

I can see why you might think that, but heavy die polishing is what creates this. Check out my 1929-S thread for a heavily polished reverse.

 

Reverse of this coin is actually mint bloom white, this photo was shown this way to show the detail better.. Or because I only took one photo and just stuck with it.

 

 

My comments about cleaning were based on more than the "shininess" as I collect PL coinage and understand that proof like or semi-prooflike coins will be mirrored. Rather, my conclusion was viewed in light of the area around the eagle that looks dark and dull as if the luster has been disturbed. Impaired luster can also be indicative of cleaning even if a coin doesn't have prominent hairlines.

 

 

[clarkbar04]

I should not have used that bad lighting angle and expected you to know what it looked like in hand! Sorry.

 

How about this one? Any "shadows" are just because of the inconsistent lighting.It does have that mint bloom halo effect which is what that "disturbance" is coming back up through that dark area under the eagle.

 

 

[yonico]

MS65

[clarkbar04]

Improperly cleaned!! I'd love to see a note as to what was construed as cleaning. The coin has die polish lines everywhere, even in the pedestals and on her arms & legs. (that musta hurt.)

[Mark T]

Ms 66 . Not a FH .

[clarkbar04]

Ms 66 . Not a FH .

 

I'll take your grade, As 65-66 is what I had in mind too.

[Mark T]

Ms 66 . Not a FH .

 

I'll take your grade, As 65-66 is what I had in mind too.

 

Is this coin Raw ?

[clarkbar04]

Ms 66 . Not a FH .

 

I'll take your grade, As 65-66 is what I had in mind too.

 

Is this coin Raw ?

 

It was raw in the photos. I sent it in for grading and NGC says it has been improperly cleaned.

[BillJones]

 

In an effort to help you understand why this coin came back as "improperly cleaned," I have downloaded your picture and marked it. The areas within the blue lines show some hairlines to me, and the fields have an unexpected amount of dullness that one would not expect of a coin in this apparent grade. If those cloudy areas are visible when you look at this live, that is an indicator of your difficulties. Metal has been moved, which often results in the "improperly cleaned" opinion.

 

The sad fact is a lot of the better coins that are sold raw these days are sold raw for a reason. Usually it's because there is a problem that is not apparent to most collectors. Many of these coins have been sent to NGC or PCGS and have not gotten a straight grade. Others have had an expert eye spot the problem therefore saving the submitter from wasted money and disappointment.

 

[clarkbar04]

In my closeup, you can perhaps make out that the lines are in fact raised, not incuse as a result of die polish lines which are common on these.

 

 

This coin has the same thing, albeit to a much lesser extent and straight graded.

 

[Mark T]

Clark did you purchase this coin on Ebay ?? It is very difficult to tell from your photos that the coin was cleaned.

[Lucky One]

For some reason, to me, the coin looks cleaned, lightly wiped. It's too white and too shiny for me. As for FH, I think it's just shy.

 

I agreed, upon first glance. After reading what the owner sees in hand though, I understand completely what I see in the photos and agree with his assessment. As for opinion of grade- photos don't show what you'd see in hand, but I would grade this a strong 66, maybe 67, and I think that since a view at arm's length would be the normal one for most people, the central head detail wouldn't be readily visible and for that reason I don't think the pros would call it a FH, although sold raw I think many collectors might accept it as FH.

 

Beautiful piece either way!

[Lucky One]

 

In an effort to help you understand why this coin came back as "improperly cleaned," I have downloaded your picture and marked it. The areas within the blue lines show some hairlines to me, and the fields have an unexpected amount of dullness that one would not expect of a coin in this apparent grade. If those cloudy areas are visible when you look at this live, that is an indicator of your difficulties. Metal has been moved, which often results in the "improperly cleaned" opinion.

 

The sad fact is a lot of the better coins that are sold raw these days are sold raw for a reason. Usually it's because there is a problem that is not apparent to most collectors. Many of these coins have been sent to NGC or PCGS and have not gotten a straight grade. Others have had an expert eye spot the problem therefore saving the submitter from wasted money and disappointment.

 

Bill, may I point out that the gentleman said the die had been cleaned like crazy and that the lines were raised? I've seen a LOT of Morgans in my time that looked cleaned but were pristine, this coin is no different. With all respect, read what he wrote again my friend...

[BillJones]

The coin has been to NGC, and they did not get grade it because of Improper cleaning. I was trying to see the reason why NGC would say that. The lines could be raised from die polishing, and there could be a lot of small hairlines from cleaning at the same time. You have situation where the surfaces appear normal between the letters "E" and "R" in "LIBERTY" but cloudy and suspect in fields and between other letters.

 

Without a personal inspection it is impossible to make a definitive call, but I'm trying help, which is the intent of this area of the site.

 

[clarkbar04]

I understand completely, Bill and I definitely appreciate the input anyone with experience such as yours. And I know the big difference is that you have not had the coin in hand. This thing is so nice I looked at it every day prior to submission. And I know what everyone else thinks, "who are you to say NGC got it wrong?!" But, I maintain that they did. Of the handful of submissions I have done, this one is the first coin I have been surprised to be put in a details holder. If it were just a couple hairlines, it should still grade at a 62 or something. It is not like they are hiding under some toning or haze.

 

I did buy this off ebay just a month ago. I am fully willing to be persuaded that it has in fact been cleaned, as if that is the case I can return the coin under PP buyer protection. (I will probably have to talk myself into it!)

 

If you look closely at the "R" in liberty, you can see a big line that starts in the field in front of the letter and continues right up through it and into the, umm "R hole"??

[Lucky One]

The coin has been to NGC, and they did not get grade it because of Improper cleaning. I was trying to see the reason why NGC would say that. The lines could be raised from die polishing, and there could be a lot of small hairlines from cleaning at the same time. You have situation where the surfaces appear normal between the letters "E" and "R" in "LIBERTY" but cloudy and suspect in fields and between other letters.

 

Without a personal inspection it is impossible to make a definitive call, but I'm trying help, which is the intent of this area of the site.

 

I understad your reasoning and it is sound Bill. Sorry if it seemed that I was impuning you in any way, it just appeared from your reply that you had missed the part about the lines being raised on the coin. You are correct, and I have seen many coins that had both heavy die polish lines as well as patches of cleaning hairlines, and I think that is why, IF this coin is untouched, NGC put it in a details holder- any time I get a coin with a brilliant obverse (or reverse) and a satiny or other finish on the reverse, I look more closely for signs of the cleaning. As it turns out, so has the gentleman who owns the coin, and at this point I think he knows what he's looking at. Opinions are just that. Anyway, it seems to me that the only thing he wants is an opinion of grade, hairlines and die polishing aside...

[johnny9434]

The coin has been to NGC, and they did not get grade it because of Improper cleaning. I was trying to see the reason why NGC would say that. The lines could be raised from die polishing, and there could be a lot of small hairlines from cleaning at the same time. You have situation where the surfaces appear normal between the letters "E" and "R" in "LIBERTY" but cloudy and suspect in fields and between other letters.

 

Without a personal inspection it is impossible to make a definitive call, but I'm trying help, which is the intent of this area of the site.

something that i wasent sure about, thanks bill

[Mark T]

I understand completely, Bill and I definitely appreciate the input anyone with experience such as yours. And I know the big difference is that you have not had the coin in hand. This thing is so nice I looked at it every day prior to submission. And I know what everyone else thinks, "who are you to say NGC got it wrong?!" But, I maintain that they did. Of the handful of submissions I have done, this one is the first coin I have been surprised to be put in a details holder. If it were just a couple hairlines, it should still grade at a 62 or something. It is not like they are hiding under some toning or haze.

 

I did buy this off ebay just a month ago. I am fully willing to be persuaded that it has in fact been cleaned, as if that is the case I can return the coin under PP buyer protection. (I will probably have to talk myself into it!)

 

If you look closely at the "R" in liberty, you can see a big line that starts in the field in front of the letter and continues right up through it and into the, umm "R hole"??

 

 

By chance did you buy this from Great Southern Coins ?? Is so then I have no doubt that the coin was cleaned or messed with in some way as graded by NGC .

 

 

 

[clarkbar04]

By chance did you buy this from Great Southern Coins ?? Is so then I have no doubt that the coin was cleaned or messed with in some way as graded by NGC .

 

Nope, I don't even look at their raw auctions as I have heard that is best to steer clear of them.

[BillJones]

Maybe this will help to clear up some things. This 1929 quarter is graded MS-65 and has original undipped surfaces in my opinion. Compare the fields and luster on this piece with coin at the top of the thread.

 

 

And yes, if this coin came from Great Southern Coin, you probably have "trouble in River City." They are noted for shining up coins and juicing their photos to make them look good to novice collectors.

 

[clarkbar04]

That is certainly a nice example, but obviously a much earlier die state and produced at a mint which may have actually taken pride in the coins they made that year. As to whether it has ever been dipped or not, who knows. What I can tell you is that any shadowy appearances you are seeing are due to lighting conditions and not due to variances in the fields. If you took photos of my coin, it would probably look like a different coin altogether.

 

Would you, Bill, or LuckyOne (sorry, don't know your name) care to offer a few moments of your 50 years experience if I sent the coin directly to you for evaluation? It would certainly save me some additional grading fees, and I might learn something along the way. I would be willing to compensate you for a small amount of your time.

 

These are the same reverses, just with different lighting. The 1st pic makes it look like something is definitely amiss. The 2nd is taken under more consistent lighting.