Incomplete Certification of NGC coins

[coinsbygary]

For those who are not in the field of human psychology, what you have been reading for six pages is the outcome of excessive IT and software development exposure. It is related to the preservatives in pepperoni as consumed on countless stale pizzas, and over stimulation of certain parts of the brain by nitrites.

 

Temporary relief for the sufferer can be provided by Deep Brain Stimulation of the nucleus accumbens (or a konk on the noggin for non-technical readers). Temporary relief for the sufferer's victims is best provided by good Scotch.

 

Rest assured it is curable - eventually. Limited success has been noted in sufferers who have been exposed to large doses of romance novels, TV reality programs, and Polynesian sand curling. Those with multiple IT degrees also have hope, although they might not be able to recognize the problem.

 

That's all fine and dandy, Roger, but what relief do the rest of us have? Maybe PCGS has a cure for him.

 

Chris

 

This thread would have been zapped ATS by the end of page 1.

Gary

[cpm9ball]

For those who are not in the field of human psychology, what you have been reading for six pages is the outcome of excessive IT and software development exposure. It is related to the preservatives in pepperoni as consumed on countless stale pizzas, and over stimulation of certain parts of the brain by nitrites.

 

Temporary relief for the sufferer can be provided by Deep Brain Stimulation of the nucleus accumbens (or a konk on the noggin for non-technical readers). Temporary relief for the sufferer's victims is best provided by good Scotch.

 

Rest assured it is curable - eventually. Limited success has been noted in sufferers who have been exposed to large doses of romance novels, TV reality programs, and Polynesian sand curling. Those with multiple IT degrees also have hope, although they might not be able to recognize the problem.

 

That's all fine and dandy, Roger, but what relief do the rest of us have? Maybe PCGS has a cure for him.

 

Chris

 

This thread would have been zapped ATS by the end of page 1.

Gary

 

You had to mess up the surprise, didn't you!

 

Chris

[coinsbygary]

For those who are not in the field of human psychology, what you have been reading for six pages is the outcome of excessive IT and software development exposure. It is related to the preservatives in pepperoni as consumed on countless stale pizzas, and over stimulation of certain parts of the brain by nitrites.

 

Temporary relief for the sufferer can be provided by Deep Brain Stimulation of the nucleus accumbens (or a konk on the noggin for non-technical readers). Temporary relief for the sufferer's victims is best provided by good Scotch.

 

Rest assured it is curable - eventually. Limited success has been noted in sufferers who have been exposed to large doses of romance novels, TV reality programs, and Polynesian sand curling. Those with multiple IT degrees also have hope, although they might not be able to recognize the problem.

 

That's all fine and dandy, Roger, but what relief do the rest of us have? Maybe PCGS has a cure for him.

 

Chris

 

This thread would have been zapped ATS by the end of page 1.

Gary

 

You had to mess up the surprise, didn't you!

 

Chris

 

Oop's Sometimes I'm a little dense.

Gary

[#]

Zapped ATS? Just another reason NGC is better IMHO and for me. Though I admit I only read ATS due to intimidation. Here only Roger scares me

[cpm9ball]

Zapped ATS? Just another reason NGC is better IMHO and for me. Though I admit I only read ATS due to intimidation. Here only Roger scares me

 

Roger is a nice guy. It's just that some of his jokes are scary.

 

Chris

[RWB]

"Here only Roger scares me."

 

Uh.... thanks? I think? Well.....? Here -- I'll take off the native healer spirit mask...that better?

[#]

Now Roger, you KNOW that was a compliment and I know you're eating it up. As in an acquired taste, think back.

But I made the king of intelligent, humorous put downs stutter, think and use Uh!

-winner winner chicken dinner-Charlie Sheen

 

David Out!

[RWB]

Charlie Sheen -- was he the original Mr. Clean in the commercials?

 

Well, thank you.... ! I would never foist my real humor on an online medium.

[MLCoins-migration]

So, please don't think you are simply going to snow me with your substantial education, or shame me for my fervor, nor my inexperience posting on a chatboard.

 

You were the first in this thread to throw around educational qualifications and your "double" degree. I was informing you that we on this forum are not a bunch of bumbling redneck mouth breathers. You drew your sword first, now you don't like the consequences.

 

You can transcribe all the set theory Mumbo-Jumbo you'd like Marcus, or proclaim your IQ to the world, that doesn't prove that you know diddly about NGC. Error collecting is a highly niche collecting area. Truly fantastic error coins sell for great money without the gimmick of being able to declare "pop 1". The kind of data you are asking for are simply too disperse to mean anything to a true collector. As I already explained in my first post, the misuse of population data by hucksters is reason enough for NGC to limit their reporting to non error coins. If you can't understand that then I am sorry for you. In general, dramatic error coins sell for more...and a struck through modern proof coin doesn't qualify for that "dramatic" definition IMO.

 

Good luck in your continued rampage of silliness, but I have said all I am going to say in a thread of this sort. Some people are simply beyond any rational argument.

 

 

 

brg5658,

 

First, offer a rational argument, then let's begin a real unbiased discussion; because, so far, your arguments contain only presumptuous assumptions. Every analysis requires assumptions. If you make such broad, all encompassing assumptions about the populations, then you need to back them up with much more proof. Whether the assumptions I make are "reasonable" requires that you be honest enough to question them...I'd be very happy to message NGC, and substantiate my very simple assumptions. If you toss your "Universal" assumptions at the IT department, it will only snow them, and we won't get any useful information from them.

 

Also, just because you say so, and say it with conviction, I or any other member of the collectors Society should believe just blindly believe you?

 

OK, experts of all experts, tell me...How many modern proof mint error coins have been discovered thus far? F.Y.I....most of them come from coins struck in 1969...and there are appx. 12 of them, where 6 of the coin/date/denom/error have multiples, and the Eisenhower has only one specimen.

 

You probably just made the honest mistake of answering without considering the facts that the coin contains an error, and that the coin is a proof, not a business strike, are the essence of the absolute rarity of the subject coin. If the coin was a business strike, then you are absolutely correct in saying that it isn't particularly rare at all.

 

Marcus

 

[cpm9ball]

How many modern proof mint error coins have been discovered thus far? F.Y.I....most of them come from coins struck in 1969...and there are appx. 12 of them, where 6 of the coin/date/denom/error have multiples, and the Eisenhower has only one specimen.

 

Marcus

 

Okay, smart guy, I know of one major dealer that has at least 8 modern PF Mint errors in his inventory. All of them were struck in different years, and none of them were from 1969. I won't tell you who it is because you know everything.

 

Yes! Brandon is my friend, and no, I don't work for him or NGC.

 

Chris

[jom]

Wow...seven pages of this. Amazing....

 

jom

[MLCoins-migration]

NGC apparently disagrees with you. I disagree with you as I consider the information irrelevant because I don't consider the vast majority of errors to be distinctive or significant at all. Most collectors (whether of errors or otherwise) seem to agree with me or else more would collect them and the prices would be higher today.

 

From what I can see, the primary (and maybe only) errors where any noticeable number of collectors seem to care are for those listed in price guides (primarily and maybe only the "Red Book") and maybe reference books. Examples of these coins include the 1955 "double die" cent and the "No S" proof dimes. These coins are included and its evident collectors consider them important going both by the price level and the population reports.

 

Most others are unknown or obscure but there isn't any reason to believe (that I can see) that adding them to the population reports is going to make any difference except to very few collectors.

 

 

I can guarantee that the "Special" error coins became "Special" due to time and the public exposure needed to verify the relative population of that particular error coin. What I proposed in my opening post will make the vetting of all error coins very very very very very....ad nauseum...EASY. There would be another benefit, which I think should be considered; to whit, People would probably make more use of the Absolute Rarity Scale, not for error coins alone, but for all coins.

 

What I proposed in my opening post, and later mapped out in a later post, would definitely change the coin community's perception of what rarities actually exist, yet are currently hidden in the census data. The word "Hidden", as I use it, isn't being used to suggest a conspiracy is at hand within the rank and file of NGC. However, I do know (yes, I'm not a newbie, I just preferred to fly under the radar up until now) that there are many dealers and collectors who are very well aware of this population reporting deficiency in the online "Certification Pages", and they exploit/leverage that knowledge; and, they have every right to. However, this knowledge belongs to all NGC's collector society members as well...Really folks, it is an easy upgrade to make to the Certifications. Doesn't a collector have the right to know all the information NGC has access to, and currently isn't providing on some of the existing coin's Online Certifications?

 

I visited this issue of Truth in Reporting in a previous post.The answer to my last question here is a resounding "YES".

 

Best regards,

 

Marcus

[RWB]

You can start an on-line petition. Or -- you could submit model legislation to your local congressional delegation. Buy a large block of CU stock and pack their Board of Directors.

 

[#]

I'm really enjoying the movie but the generalized remarks are like annoying commercials. Please, on with the attack and FINISH him ??!

Now on with the show

[cpm9ball]

NGC apparently disagrees with you. I disagree with you as I consider the information irrelevant because I don't consider the vast majority of errors to be distinctive or significant at all. Most collectors (whether of errors or otherwise) seem to agree with me or else more would collect them and the prices would be higher today.

 

From what I can see, the primary (and maybe only) errors where any noticeable number of collectors seem to care are for those listed in price guides (primarily and maybe only the "Red Book") and maybe reference books. Examples of these coins include the 1955 "double die" cent and the "No S" proof dimes. These coins are included and its evident collectors consider them important going both by the price level and the population reports.

 

Most others are unknown or obscure but there isn't any reason to believe (that I can see) that adding them to the population reports is going to make any difference except to very few collectors.

 

 

I can guarantee that the "Special" error coins became "Special" due to time and the public exposure needed to verify the relative population of that particular error coin. What I proposed in my opening post will make the vetting of all error coins very very very very very....ad nauseum...EASY. There would be another benefit, which I think should be considered; to whit, People would probably make more use of the Absolute Rarity Scale, not for error coins alone, but for all coins.

 

What I proposed in my opening post, and later mapped out in a later post, would definitely change the coin community's perception of what rarities actually exist, yet are currently hidden in the census data. The word "Hidden", as I use it, isn't being used to suggest a conspiracy is at hand within the rank and file of NGC. However, I do know (yes, I'm not a newbie, I just preferred to fly under the radar up until now) that there are many dealers and collectors who are very well aware of this population reporting deficiency in the online "Certification Pages", and they exploit/leverage that knowledge; and, they have every right to. However, this knowledge belongs to all NGC's collector society members as well...Really folks, it is an easy upgrade to make to the Certifications. Doesn't a collector have the right to know all the information NGC has access to, and currently isn't providing on some of the existing coin's Online Certifications?

 

I visited this issue of Truth in Reporting in a previous post.The answer to my last question here is a resounding "YES".

 

Best regards,

 

Marcus

 

Your eyes must be brown!

 

Chris

[World Colonial]

I can guarantee that the "Special" error coins became "Special" due to time and the public exposure needed to verify the relative population of that particular error coin. What I proposed in my opening post will make the vetting of all error coins very very very very very....ad nauseum...EASY. There would be another benefit, which I think should be considered; to whit, People would probably make more use of the Absolute Rarity Scale, not for error coins alone, but for all coins.

 

What I proposed in my opening post, and later mapped out in a later post, would definitely change the coin community's perception of what rarities actually exist, yet are currently hidden in the census data. The word "Hidden", as I use it, isn't being used to suggest a conspiracy is at hand within the rank and file of NGC. However, I do know (yes, I'm not a newbie, I just preferred to fly under the radar up until now) that there are many dealers and collectors who are very well aware of this population reporting deficiency in the online "Certification Pages", and they exploit/leverage that knowledge; and, they have every right to. However, this knowledge belongs to all NGC's collector society members as well...Really folks, it is an easy upgrade to make to the Certifications. Doesn't a collector have the right to know all the information NGC has access to, and currently isn't providing on some of the existing coin's Online Certifications?

 

I visited this issue of Truth in Reporting in a previous post.The answer to my last question here is a resounding "YES".

 

Best regards,

 

Marcus

 

I don't know how long you have been collecting but from your posts on this topic, you don't understand what motivates most collectors to have an interest in and pay high prices for coins at all. Collector behavior is a subject I have discussed in reply to many topics both here and on the other coin forum I post on many times.

 

What you are describing is a very narrow form of rarity, just as it is with die varieties, "special designation strikes" (such as FS Jefferson nickels), "grade rarities" and toned coins. A very low percentage of these coins are widely collected above nominal prices and a slightly larger number have a small hard core following but that is all.

 

By the standard you are using, there are literally tens of thousands of "rarities" in the US coin series. My response to any claim of significance for 99%+ of these coins is that the vast majority don't care about them now and they aren't going to later either because there is absolutely nothing significant about them whatsoever other than their narrow scarcity.

 

Generically, it isn't that lack of awareness of these coins that keeps others from collecting them but that they couldn't care less.

 

Why don't they care? The general answer is because to most collectors they aren't interesting and going by the sentiments you are expressing on their future prices, they can buy a lot more coin for the same money.

 

Except in isolation, the reason you are wrong is because your claims are contrary to how most collectors act.

 

Here is my first question for you. Why would more than a minimal number care other than because you want them to, presumably to pay a lot more for the coins you own or will own and want to sell for a windfall later?

 

Here is my second question for you. How many collectors buy "rare" coins mostly or only because of their narrow scarcity? My answer is almost none.

 

Here is my third question. As a specialty, die variety collecting is far preferred to error collecting generically. Anyone can make the same claim you have for errors for hundreds or thousands of obscure die varieties. There isn't any reason to believe more than a minimal number will ever care either. So why would they care about the coins you like? Are all of these coins going to become a lot more popular? Or just the ones you like?

 

Here is my last question. How much do you think these coins should be worth? Once I receive your reply, if it is what I think you have in mind, I will literally be able to find thousands of coins from any number of series all over the world that practically every collector would rather buy for the same money and many of them are quite prominent as opposed to the obscure material you have in mind.

 

If you still disagree with me as I suspect you do, good luck finding the handful of people who are going to agree with you for the errors you prefer.

[MLCoins-migration]

Okay, smart guy, I know of one major dealer that has at least 8 modern PF Mint errors in his inventory. All of them were struck in different years, and none of them were from 1969. I won't tell you who it is because you know everything.

 

Yes! Brandon is my friend, and no, I don't work for him or NGC.

 

Chris

 

Again, saying a thing, then refusing to disclose both the details and source of your proposed evidence isn't proof at all. Tell us about those 8 coins? What are the certification #'s on the holders so we can look them up? Hello? Any of this registering?

 

Marcus

[cpm9ball]

Okay, smart guy, I know of one major dealer that has at least 8 modern PF Mint errors in his inventory. All of them were struck in different years, and none of them were from 1969. I won't tell you who it is because you know everything.

 

Yes! Brandon is my friend, and no, I don't work for him or NGC.

 

Chris

 

Again, saying a thing, then refusing to disclose both the details and source of your proposed evidence isn't proof at all. Tell us about those 8 coins? What are the certification #'s on the holders so we can look them up? Hello? Any of this registering?

 

Marcus

 

Come on, Marca$$! You're smarter than all of us. You should be able to find them. Or, maybe you just don't know as much as you think you do. Which is it?

 

Chris

[MLCoins-migration]

 

Your eyes must be brown!

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Actually, they're hazel, and the ladies love them...Green when I wear red.

 

MLcoins

[MLCoins-migration]

 

Okay, smart guy, I know of one major dealer that has at least 8 modern PF Mint errors in his inventory. All of them were struck in different years, and none of them were from 1969. I won't tell you who it is because you know everything.

 

Yes! Brandon is my friend, and no, I don't work for him or NGC.

 

Chris

 

Hey Chris, don't you ever think before you speak?

 

If your friend is a "major dealer", then it would stand to reason that he would have some very rare and expensive coins in his stock, including Proof Error coins. Big time dealers don't place too many run of the mill coins in their display cases.The space in their display cases is prime real estate. So, can you please be so kind as to call your friend, or pay him a visit, and give us mud dwellers information on those 8 coins; ya- know, like the holder description, ohhhhh, I'm not thinking before speaking too, AND THE PRICES, AND THE HOLDER SERIAL NUMBERS? I'd bet I'm not the only mud dweller who'd like to read the online certifications.

 

Marcus

[MLCoins-migration]

I'm waiting to hear from another major dealer of rare coins; especially, error coins. When I get the "Facts" which Chris claims to be sole heir to, then I will provide a good ballpark estimate of the population size for modern proof error coins, and a link to the dealer's site so you can ask him yourself.

[cpm9ball]

 

Your eyes must be brown!

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Actually, they're hazel, and the ladies love them...Green when I wear red.

 

MLcoins

 

That is surprising because you are so full of it.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

 

Okay, smart guy, I know of one major dealer that has at least 8 modern PF Mint errors in his inventory. All of them were struck in different years, and none of them were from 1969. I won't tell you who it is because you know everything.

 

Yes! Brandon is my friend, and no, I don't work for him or NGC.

 

Chris

 

Hey Chris, don't you ever think before you speak?

 

If your friend is a "major dealer", then it would stand to reason that he would have some very rare and expensive coins in his stock, including Proof Error coins. Big time dealers don't place too many run of the mill coins in their display cases.The space in their display cases is prime real estate. So, can you please be so kind as to call your friend, or pay him a visit, and give us mud dwellers information on those 8 coins; ya- know, like the holder description, ohhhhh, I'm not thinking before speaking too, AND THE PRICES, AND THE HOLDER SERIAL NUMBERS? I'd bet I'm not the only mud dweller who'd like to read the online certifications.

 

Marcus

 

Is it necessary to think when speaking to a know-it-all? Does it matter what anyone says?

 

My friend? Major dealer? I didn't say that the two were the same. That's what happens when you make an assumption, Marca$$. It makes an out of you, but not me!

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

I'm waiting to hear from another major dealer of rare coins; especially, error coins. When I get the "Facts" which Chris claims to be sole heir to, then I will provide a good ballpark estimate of the population size for modern proof error coins, and a link to the dealer's site so you can ask him yourself.

 

The fact that there is a major dealer out there and since you haven't the slightest clue who it is merely strengthens the fact that you are clueless about errors, Marca$$.

 

Chris

[World Colonial]

Below is a link to the CONECA Glossary. This is the first time I have ever looked at this list, though I was aware of many of these categories prior to reading it.

 

http://conecaonline.org/content/glossary.html

 

All I can say is, holy smokes that is one heck of a long categories list, never mind minor variations or potential combinations.

 

If I were to see examples of each, I would be able to express a better opinion as to whether collectors consider them significant (or not) today and their future prospects. In the aggregate though, it doesn't change my opinion at all.

 

My answer for the lopsided percentage of errors and how most collectors do and will perceive them is "no". To my knowledge most existing errors are circulating modern and the underlying coins are disproportionately nominally priced and at or near the bottom of the preference scale as a series.

 

They are a novelty and a very low percentage are interesting and highly sought after but that is all.

[MLCoins-migration]

 

Your eyes must be brown!

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Actually, they're hazel, and the ladies love them...Green when I wear red.

 

MLcoins

 

That is surprising because you are so full of it.

 

Chris

 

 

OOOOOO, ZAP! - Chris, I think we all knew what you were referring to from the very beginning.

 

I'd say more; however, I don't like challenging children - It's just unfair.

[MLCoins-migration]

You can start an on-line petition. Or -- you could submit model legislation to your local congressional delegation. Buy a large block of CU stock and pack their Board of Directors.

 

 

Wow, did you string all those clever quips together into one sentence by yourself, or did your mommy help you?

[MLCoins-migration]

Well folks,

 

I'll wait for the data I promised in an earlier post before you hear from me again.

 

Until then, go at it all you piranhas...I'll bet I have a hide thick enough to survive your feeding frenzy.

 

Peace out,

 

Marcus

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Well folks,

 

I'll wait for the data I promised in an earlier post before you hear from me again.

 

Until then, go at it all you piranhas...I'll bet I have a hide thick enough to survive your feeding frenzy.

 

Peace out,

 

Marcus

 

 

Who wants to data Marca$$, anyway? Certainly not me!

 

It was taken for granted that you have a thick hide to go along with your thick skull.

 

Chris

[ldhair]

Thank you Marcus. We have all learned so much from you. Please come back when you have more to teach us.