Grading Continues to Evolve

[Tyrock]

In the May 5th issue of Numismatic News F. Michael Fazzari stated "Grading continues to evolve. The biggest changes are still to come as old-timers leave the hobby and new standards and practices evolve." I'm sure he's right. What changes do you see coming in the following years? I see the possibility of the Sheldon grading scale being revised.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

In the May 5th issue of Numismatic News F. Michael Fazzari stated "Grading continues to evolve. The biggest changes are still to come as old-timers leave the hobby and new standards and practices evolve." I'm sure he's right. What changes do you see coming in the following years? I see the possibility of the Sheldon grading scale being revised.

 

Grading is not evolving. Marketing is evolving.

[Raisethis2]

What he said............

 

 

I would say however that "market grading" has crept into the grading room so much that the old timers who know what they're doing will look at coins graded recently with that WTF look.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What he said............

 

 

I would say however that "market grading" has crept into the grading room so much that the old timers who know what they're doing will look at coins graded recently with that WTF look.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

And a reasonable opinion with an interesting perspective added.

[cpm9ball]

Judging by the way newcomers to the hobby spell using their "dumbphones" and use the wrong words when forming simple sentences, I think the Sheldon Scale will become the "Seldom Scale".

 

Chris

[Nutmeg Coin]

Market acceptable is a tough matter to judge. Skip Fazzari was with NGC before ICG where he works now. I like the ICG option others like Anacs as a cheaper option than the two main ones which have a duopoly like the two main political parties, Coke and Pepsi, etc.. Fast, inexpensive, responsive where you can actually speak with people like Skip, rather than be limited to under a minute of information from the other services. People will always buy the coin and not the holder, though biases are inevitable; outfits like Legend wanting everything PCGS and CAC. It makes the customer comfortable, takes away anxiety I guess. And if you are getting coins over a few hundred dollars certified where every little grade differential affects value you probably should get the double certification if you are paying top dollar.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Market acceptable is a tough matter to judge. Skip Fazzari was with NGC before ICG where he works now. I like the ICG option others like Anacs as a cheaper option than the two main ones which have a duopoly like the two main political parties, Coke and Pepsi, etc.. Fast, inexpensive, responsive where you can actually speak with people like Skip, rather than be limited to under a minute of information from the other services. People will always buy the coin and not the holder, though biases are inevitable; outfits like Legend wanting everything PCGS and CAC. It makes the customer comfortable, takes away anxiety I guess. And if you are getting coins over a few hundred dollars certified where every little grade differential affects value you probably should get the double certification if you are paying top dollar.

 

 

 

People will not "always buy the coin and not the holder...". Many don't know how to do so and many others don't want to do so.

[RWB]

"Evolve" implies change, and that suggests changing standards. Which means that what is called one thing today might be called another in some tomorrow. I certainly would not want my coins "graded" in that unstable model.

[orifdoc]

If you have 100 people in a room you can line them up from dumbest to smartest. If you test on knowledge of movie trivia one day, you'll get a certain seating chart. If you test them on their ability to build a birdhouse the next day, there will be some re-arranging.

 

If you arrange them by their ability to entertain an audience or by their attractiveness, you'll have something more akin to what happens in the grading room. The funny thing is, the 100 people are the same after the sorting as they were before.

[KMAG100]

If you have 100 people in a room you can line them up from dumbest to smartest. If you test on knowledge of movie trivia one day, you'll get a certain seating chart. If you test them on their ability to build a birdhouse the next day, there will be some re-arranging.

The funny thing is, the 100 people are the same after the sorting as they were before.

 

Nicely Said!

[Conder101]

Skip Fazzari was with NGC before ICG where he works now.

And I believe he was with ANACS before NGC. In the early years both NGC and PCGS got a lot of their graders from ANACS.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Grading continues to evolve because coins are as diverse as snowflakes or paintings. If you did a rigorous analysis of coins in a particular category like Bust coins or Seated dollars, you are going to see many butt ugly specimens in PCGS and NGC holders that the alternative services have equal and better examples in the same grades:

 

Here is a Seated dollar graded XF40 by NGC: http://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1843-1-xf40-ngc-ngc-census-33-350-pcgs-population-77-369-mintage-165-100-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem-free/a/131412-22902.s#Photo

 

Here is one I sold in an ICG holder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1843-1-Liberty-Seated-Dollar-ICG-XF40-/231537947712?rd=1 I bought it from Don Blau for $425 as an XF and sent it in to be certified. It could be argued that it is not all there as an "XF" based on the definition, or it could be argued that the NGC coin is too beat up to get straight graded as an XF40.

 

Should unattractive coins be netted down? Who wants coins that are eyesores to look at?

 

Coins can "evolve" in grade. I have had gold coins get rejected as "cleaned" by NGC that grade well into the MS grade later by PCGS and get the green bean. Damaged and harshly cleaned coins do not "evolve".

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Grading continues to evolve because coins are as diverse as snowflakes or paintings. If you did a rigorous analysis of coins in a particular category like Bust coins or Seated dollars, you are going to see many butt ugly specimens in PCGS and NGC holders that the alternative services have equal and better examples in the same grades:

 

Here is a Seated dollar graded XF40 by NGC: http://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1843-1-xf40-ngc-ngc-census-33-350-pcgs-population-77-369-mintage-165-100-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem-free/a/131412-22902.s#Photo

 

Here is one I sold in an ICG holder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1843-1-Liberty-Seated-Dollar-ICG-XF40-/231537947712?rd=1 I bought it from Don Blau for $425 as an XF and sent it in to be certified. It could be argued that it is not all there as an "XF" based on the definition, or it could be argued that the NGC coin is too beat up to get straight graded as an XF40.

 

Should unattractive coins be netted down? Who wants coins that are eyesores to look at?

 

Coins can "evolve" in grade. I have had gold coins get rejected as "cleaned" by NGC that grade well into the MS grade later by PCGS and get the green bean. Damaged and harshly cleaned coins do not "evolve".

 

What you describe is not evolving, to me. It is market perception.

[RWB]

If you have 100 people in a room, they will end up arguing about religion.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

If you have 100 people in a room, they will end up arguing about religion.

 

Grading is a Religion

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

If you have 100 people in a room you can line them up from dumbest to smartest. If you test on knowledge of movie trivia one day, you'll get a certain seating chart. If you test them on their ability to build a birdhouse the next day, there will be some re-arranging.

The funny thing is, the 100 people are the same after the sorting as they were before.

 

Nicely Said!

 

I don't think so.....

[World Colonial]

Market acceptable is a tough matter to judge. Skip Fazzari was with NGC before ICG where he works now. I like the ICG option others like Anacs as a cheaper option than the two main ones which have a duopoly like the two main political parties, Coke and Pepsi, etc.. Fast, inexpensive, responsive where you can actually speak with people like Skip, rather than be limited to under a minute of information from the other services. People will always buy the coin and not the holder, though biases are inevitable; outfits like Legend wanting everything PCGS and CAC. It makes the customer comfortable, takes away anxiety I guess. And if you are getting coins over a few hundred dollars certified where every little grade differential affects value you probably should get the double certification if you are paying top dollar.

 

 

 

People will not "always buy the coin and not the holder...". Many don't know how to do so and many others don't want to do so.

 

+1

[World Colonial]

Grading continues to evolve because coins are as diverse as snowflakes or paintings. If you did a rigorous analysis of coins in a particular category like Bust coins or Seated dollars, you are going to see many butt ugly specimens in PCGS and NGC holders that the alternative services have equal and better examples in the same grades:

 

Here is a Seated dollar graded XF40 by NGC: http://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1843-1-xf40-ngc-ngc-census-33-350-pcgs-population-77-369-mintage-165-100-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem-free/a/131412-22902.s#Photo

 

Here is one I sold in an ICG holder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1843-1-Liberty-Seated-Dollar-ICG-XF40-/231537947712?rd=1 I bought it from Don Blau for $425 as an XF and sent it in to be certified. It could be argued that it is not all there as an "XF" based on the definition, or it could be argued that the NGC coin is too beat up to get straight graded as an XF40.

 

Should unattractive coins be netted down? Who wants coins that are eyesores to look at?

 

Coins can "evolve" in grade. I have had gold coins get rejected as "cleaned" by NGC that grade well into the MS grade later by PCGS and get the green bean. Damaged and harshly cleaned coins do not "evolve".

 

What you describe is not evolving, to me. It is market perception.

 

I agree. Today at least in the US, the perception seems to have has shifted from relative scarcity to "eye appeal" and "grade rarity". Coins which are otherwise extremely common even in grades which were good enough for most collectors in the past sell for exorbitant prices because of minimal differences in actual (if not entirely imaginary) quality while actually scarce coins are penalized because they couldn't get into a numerical holder, even if the coin doesn't look that bad.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here is another Seated $1 graded XF45 I sold: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1842-1-Liberty-Seated-Dollar-NGC-XF45-/231466456943?rd=1 Showing it around there were mixed feelings, Don said it was a VF due to his perception. I had bought that one in an NGC holder, same grade, sent it in for conservation due to unattractive toning, paid for that and the regrade. Originally bought from Coin exhange in Springfield for $600, sold at a loss but not that bad.

[Dcoin]

Grading must evolve because the graders must stay in business.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Grading must evolve because the graders must stay in business.

 

The Market must evolve because the TPGs/4PGs have to stay in business.

[johnny9434]

If you have 100 people in a room you can line them up from dumbest to smartest. If you test on knowledge of movie trivia one day, you'll get a certain seating chart. If you test them on their ability to build a birdhouse the next day, there will be some re-arranging.

 

If you arrange them by their ability to entertain an audience or by their attractiveness, you'll have something more akin to what happens in the grading room. The funny thing is, the 100 people are the same after the sorting as they were before.

well said.

[RWB]

"The Market must evolve because the TPGs/4PGs have to stay in business."

 

Why?

 

There is no imperative in Nature that any species must survive. That is a lesson of evolution.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

"The Market must evolve because the TPGs/4PGs have to stay in business."

 

Why?

 

There is no imperative in Nature that any species must survive. That is a lesson of evolution.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

How have the grading services evolved in the last couple decades? Online databases, a wealth of information, but a relatively small percentage of dealers and serious collectors use it, share it or contribute to it. As one brick and mortar dealer said recently, there is so little that is good on the internet. The same man prefers to sell raw coins, says his customers like them too. I disagree with him.

 

How could the grading services evolve further? Do partial refunds on no grade coins that have only a guarantee of authenticity not grade-related value. Offer free or low cost "perusal" options for coins that may or may not be worth grading. Also do attribution only if doing so adds value, so no wasted fees on coins that are not worth getting the variety done. Offer Wayte-Raymond style individually graded holders at a slight premium, so that the coins will tone in the holder. Work toward the day that hand-held grading scanners can be used at least for preliminary pre-grading assessment of coins. You hover over the coin with the device and it links up with the internet, and throws out approximate grade levels and values. With graded coins it gives value within 10%. I know these steps are unlikely from a profit perspective, but probably the day will come with some of them.

[Cherry-migration]

Many say that grading is not evolving but marketing does. Are you agree with that?

[CaptHenway]

Skip Fazzari was with NGC before ICG where he works now.

And I believe he was with ANACS before NGC. In the early years both NGC and PCGS got a lot of their graders from ANACS.

 

Skip was with ANACS before it started grading.

[CaptHenway]

Is the question "Have grading services gotten better service oriented?" or is it "Have grading services abandoned grading standards to give submittors what they want?"

[cpm9ball]

Is the question "Have grading services gotten better service oriented?" or is it "Have grading services abandoned grading standards to give submittors what they want?"

 

If someone were able to submit millions of dollars (face value) every year for grading, don't you think you might have some leverage over grading standards? I can't help but think so.

 

Chris

[Nutmeg Coin]

Part of the evolution: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/does-it-grade-1864-s-10-liberty.256514/

 

What is market acceptable? Is coin grading a democracy or an elitist aristocracy?