"Legend" report

[World Colonial]

I'd do the same thing. You got the hot market there, go for it. Why do you think all the big dealers are there? When the gravy's flowing you want to be right there with your kisser under the faucet. But let's not deceive ourselves, it's just marketing. That's what they do there. That's all that plastic is about.

 

I agree with you but it doesn't appear to be what most US collectors actually believe, at least from the comments on this forum and PCGS.

[brg5658]

As a collector, I'm happy to buy quality coins in the overlooked and supposedly-inferior NGC and non-CAC holders.

 

The people pushing the PCGS-CAC "magical" qualities are the dealers, and the regular brainwashed customers thereof. Not all nice coins in the world are in PCGS, CAC-blessed plastic. The reasons for such a short-sighted and self-serving comment are pretty transparent.

 

Thankfully, the majority of what I collect is non-USA coins and exonumia where such silliness is still relatively uncommon. And, these are also two arenas where NGC is the undisputed leader in terms of consistency of grading and quality of attribution. Of course, NGC is not infallible, but you also won't see people claiming they are.

 

My general feeling is that the PCGS/CAC mantra has really dumbed down the average numismatic knowledge of USA collectors. Yes, this is not a new observation -- but I think it's becoming more true as more people come into the hobby and are only exposed to the hype and dogmatic drivel of the PCGS/CAC groupies.

 

These are just my opinions as a collector who plans to hold the majority of my collection for many years, and for whom resale value is not really of great concern. As for the tunnel-vision plastic-worshiping "investor" types, keep doing what you're doing. There are plenty of coins not in PCGS plastic and without CAC stickers to keep me perfectly happy.

[World Colonial]

I also agree with your last comments.

 

Except that I would add it isn't just PCGS. It is the entire perception of the significance of the higher grades on the Sheldon scale and this is just for starters. My almost nine years on this forum has led me to believe that disproportionately, US collectors and "investors" in the better "collector" coins, "trophies", elites and any other category anyone else wants to add consider these differences significant. I agree they are financial significant since this is obviously apparent but not otherwise.

 

I have checked Legend's website on occassion and there isn't any doubt that the coins have great eye appeal. Of those I have seen, it doesn't change the fact that most of them are available elsewhere and aren't hard to find in virtually equivalent quality, unless you swallow the thinking that the criteria they use which is also the current benchmark among advanced collectors of US coinage is so significant. Most US collectors do and that is why these coins cost so much.

[Kurtdog]

I'd do the same thing. You got the hot market there, go for it. Why do you think all the big dealers are there? When the gravy's flowing you want to be right there with your kisser under the faucet. But let's not deceive ourselves, it's just marketing. That's what they do there. That's all that plastic is about.

I agree with you but it doesn't appear to be what most US collectors actually believe, at least from the comments on this forum and PCGS.

Credit that to their marketing, though. Right? And, what is marketing, once you slice it all up, but conditioning of the market. Thus, here, are you aware of Pavlov, and his experiments with dogs? Pavlov conditioned dogs to salivate in anticipation of food on the simple ringing of a bell. Let's understand, he produced a physiological response, on cue. We wonder why they salivate over PCGS plastic and are influencing the market to respond in much the same way? Wonder no more. Those forums are strictly-controlled marketing forums. Anybody rocks the boat, goes against that market-conditioning, PCGS doesn't care who they are, they're goners. Yeah. And I'll bet not many of us have even so much as a clue on that.

[dragon]

To put any of the remarks in that report in context I believe each person has to decide what in fact makes one service more desirable over another, and for me the answer would be consistency, not who can grade the most conservatively.

 

As an example, anyone can holder an obvious AU55 as an XF all day long and then claim their coins are worth more money or that coins in other holders (correctly graded to longstanding practices) are inferior by comparison. To have any credibility IMO you have to have a long track record of consistency, not who can play the game of changing their standards like the weather forecast.

 

With all that said, it's been my experience that Legend has consistently sold very nice coins at fair prices regardless of various 3rd party endorsements.

[MJ]

With all that said, it's been my experience that Legend has consistently sold very nice coins at fair prices regardless of various 3rd party endorsements.

 

Yes, I feel the same way.

 

Mark

[jpcienkus]

To put any of the remarks in that report in context I believe each person has to decide what in fact makes one service more desirable over another, and for me the answer would be consistency, not who can grade the most conservatively.

 

As an example, anyone can holder an obvious AU55 as an XF all day long and then claim their coins are worth more money or that coins in other holders (correctly graded to longstanding practices) are inferior by comparison. To have any credibility IMO you have to have a long track record of consistency, not who can play the game of changing their standards like the weather forecast.

 

With all that said, it's been my experience that Legend has consistently sold very nice coins at fair prices regardless of various 3rd party endorsements.

 

They do have some outstanding example is their auctions, many of which are too rich for my blood. I've won a few coins in their auctions, but they certainly weren't the top end coins in those auctions.

[Houston Investor]

I don't consider her report a market report - it is a marketing letter / brochure to hawk what she sells. Doesn't Legend have a significant financial investment in CAC or is it the other way around?

 

I consider NGC / PCGS coins to be equivalent if forced to generalize. The CDN CMI bears this out as it shows bluesheet PCGS at 80.7% vs NGC 80.2% of CDN. All TPG coins reflect a subjective opinion of the graders at that point in time. To make some generalization that NGC graded coins are somehow inferior or worth less is not to have a grip on reality or more likely some self serving statement based on the individuals business investment.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Doesn't Legend have a significant financial investment in CAC or is it the other way around?

 

Not anymore. When CAC started, Legend did have an interest in CAC.

[O mint bug]

About a year ago there were two 1855 o Double Eagles were up for auction by Heritage. They were shown side by side and both graded AU 55s by NGC. The NON CAC coin brought just over $9k more than the CAC coin. In this case the non CAC coin was a better looking piece. I agree it is all about eye appeal not just grade or grader. I don't have the respect for CAC some others do. I just look at the coin and make my decision. Sorta like a beauty contest in that if there are there ladies left standing and three guys watching chances are non of the guys would agree on number one.

[Kurtdog]

About a year ago there were two 1855 o Double Eagles were up for auction by Heritage. They were shown side by side and both graded AU 55s by NGC. The NON CAC coin brought just over $9k more than the CAC coin. In this case the non CAC coin was a better looking piece. I agree it is all about eye appeal not just grade or grader. I don't have the respect for CAC some others do. I just look at the coin and make my decision. Sorta like a beauty contest in that if there are there ladies left standing and three guys watching chances are non of the guys would agree on number one.

"Sorta like?" You mean "exactly like." But the experience has to be intellectualized somehow otherwise these graders look like insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. And let the games begin...

[BillJones]

A couple of years ago I a choice between two 1873 double eagles for my type set. These were the Type II Liberty double eagles. The Type II double eagle is very hard to find in strict Mint State because no pieces have recovered from shipwrecks like the SS Central America. In grades like MS-65 and better these coins are extreme rarities regardless of how common the over date and mint mark combination might be. They are very tough even in MS-64.

 

Both coins were graded MS-63, and one had CAC approaval and the other didn't. The call was close, but I thought that the non CAC piece was slightly nicer, and that was the one I bought in the auction. The other piece went for about the same money. Interestingly both pieces sold for less than the Gray Sheet type coin "bid," which shows you how accurate that is sometimes.

[Houston Investor]

I have to wonder why she wastes her time plus advertising expense writing all that. Everybody knows people market what they sell.

 

I don't care what she might say about my stuff as its not all PCGS / CAC. She is welcome at my table anytime: I will quote her the same retail prices I quote everybody else and if she is selling pull out my blue sheet and tell her what a super offer she is getting as I pay full certified bid (on coins I can use for inventory).

 

And I believe in being fair too: If she is offering me an 1881-S MS65 Dollar I will give her $112 for the PCGS one and $114 for the NGC one just like the blue sheet says.

[coinman_23885]

I have to wonder why she wastes her time plus advertising expense writing all that. Everybody knows people market what they sell.

 

I don't care what she might say about my stuff as its not all PCGS / CAC. She is welcome at my table anytime: I will quote her the same retail prices I quote everybody else and if she is selling pull out my blue sheet and tell her what a super offer she is getting as I pay full certified bid (on coins I can use for inventory).

And I believe in being fair too: If she is offering me an 1881-S MS65 Dollar I will give her $112 for the PCGS one and $114 for the NGC one just like the blue sheet says.

 

That is also probably the reason that your inventory languishes for weeks or up to two years per your post in another thread. There are multiple completed sales in the $110-$129 range on eBay. That is retail, not wholesale IMHO. That is the type of pricing that has made me question the CDN.

[Houston Investor]

I have to wonder why she wastes her time plus advertising expense writing all that. Everybody knows people market what they sell.

 

I don't care what she might say about my stuff as its not all PCGS / CAC. She is welcome at my table anytime: I will quote her the same retail prices I quote everybody else and if she is selling pull out my blue sheet and tell her what a super offer she is getting as I pay full certified bid (on coins I can use for inventory).

And I believe in being fair too: If she is offering me an 1881-S MS65 Dollar I will give her $112 for the PCGS one and $114 for the NGC one just like the blue sheet says.

 

That is also probably the reason that your inventory languishes for weeks or up to two years per your post in another thread. There are multiple completed sales in the $110-$129 range on eBay. That is retail, not wholesale IMHO. That is the type of pricing that has made me question the CDN.

 

Your ignorance about my inventory is not something you want to display here. My inventory does very well.

[coinman_23885]

I have to wonder why she wastes her time plus advertising expense writing all that. Everybody knows people market what they sell.

 

I don't care what she might say about my stuff as its not all PCGS / CAC. She is welcome at my table anytime: I will quote her the same retail prices I quote everybody else and if she is selling pull out my blue sheet and tell her what a super offer she is getting as I pay full certified bid (on coins I can use for inventory).

And I believe in being fair too: If she is offering me an 1881-S MS65 Dollar I will give her $112 for the PCGS one and $114 for the NGC one just like the blue sheet says.

 

That is also probably the reason that your inventory languishes for weeks or up to two years per your post in another thread. There are multiple completed sales in the $110-$129 range on eBay. That is retail, not wholesale IMHO. That is the type of pricing that has made me question the CDN.

 

Your ignorance about my inventory is not something you want to display here. My inventory does very well.

 

Those were your words and comments in another thread. I assumed that you, of all people, would know your own inventory. You also said that you usually won't pay more than 70% of what you think a coin will sell for. If you are paying Blue Sheet bid, which happens to be retail in this scenario, given your other comments about turnover of your inventory, I think my conclusions are logically sound. And all of this illustrates my point about the true "value" of the CDN. Prices are all over. You seemed annoyed by that suggestion.

 

I would say the high range would be 60-70% of what the dealer thinks he can move it for in a reasonable period of time. Coins are a retail hobby business. The low range may be 50-60% on slower moving material. Some stuff like cupro nickel mods I would not pay above 40% of say CW Trends for if even that.

 

The most I would offer on a numismatic coin is 70% of what I think I can price it at / sell it for. This equates to a 30% margin which is around what it takes to stay in the business. At a minimum I price coins at cost + 40%. Variable selling expense is 15% of sales alone. The balance is for my fixed costs and commission....

 

Its easier to buy coins than sell them. I have moved coins in as little as 2 weeks and had others sit in inventory for years.

[Hard Times]

Blowhard, plain and simple.

 

I know, I sound like a broken record. Sadly, so does Sperber. Her supposed wisdom is anything but. Nothing she writes surprises me anymore. I am an admitted "nobody" in the numismatic world, but Ms. Sperber is actually dangerous in much of her bizarre dogma and rhetoric.

 

Sadly so are her supporters who chime in support each time one of her wonderful blog posts get posted on the boards, pushing the misguided and largely erroneous idea that somehow NGC holdered coins are inferior and that we will be buried in them if we buy them. Sheesh, enough already it is the COIN not the HOLDER folks. Well here is a couple that aren't inferior and golly, they are in NGC holders:

 

 

[Hard Times]

If I bought only PCGS coins and no NGC, it would be a mistake for me. I always treated them equal. Never bothered to cross any thing over.

 

spoken like a true collector who knows what to collect and what quality is, not the holder but what is inside.

 

(thumbs u

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

 

 

Nice coins!

[coinman_23885]

Blowhard, plain and simple.

 

I know, I sound like a broken record. Sadly, so does Sperber. Her supposed wisdom is anything but. Nothing she writes surprises me anymore. I am an admitted "nobody" in the numismatic world, but Ms. Sperber is actually dangerous in much of her bizarre dogma and rhetoric.

 

Sadly so are her supporters who chime in support each time one of her wonderful blog posts get posted on the boards, pushing the misguided and largely erroneous idea that somehow NGC holdered coins are inferior and that we will be buried in them if we buy them. Sheesh, enough already it is the COIN not the HOLDER folks.

 

For the record, Legend also sells NGC coins. It sold two of them last month.

[Hard Times]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

Ms. Sperber, says CAC PCGS only in her blog and then auctions NGC holdered coins? Hmm.............

[coinman_23885]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

Ms. Sperber, says CAC PCGS only in her blog and then auctions NGC holdered coins? Hmm.............

 

It wasn't an auction; the items were direct sales. One was a MS67RB* IHC and the other a PF67 CAM Mercury Dime, both CACed. Both sold in the last 30 days, and I know that Legend paid a strong price on the Dime from Heritage so she must not think all NGC coins are bad.

[leeg]

I think Laura is very happy with all the free press she's getting with threads such as this. I have never bought or sold with Legend.

 

I'm more interested in how she's doing as a Governor with the ANA.

 

Her business she can run as she chooses.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

She is no longer on the board. She did not seek another term.

 

Edited: It has come to my attention that the first sentence may be inaccurate although she has announced her intent not to run again.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics&article=437

[MarkFeld]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

Ms. Sperber, says CAC PCGS only in her blog and then auctions NGC holdered coins? Hmm.............

 

It wasn't an auction; the items were direct sales. One was a MS67RB* IHC and the other a PF67 CAM Mercury Dime, both CACed. Both sold in the last 30 days, and I know that Legend paid a strong price on the Dime from Heritage so she must not think all NGC coins are bad.

 

Even (or perhaps, especially) if they had been auction coins, if someone wanted to consign NGC coins that met the minimum values required, it would have been silly for Legend to say no.

[toneddollars]

I have my most valuable coins in NGC holders. I will not pay up for PCGS coins n my series as I think PCGS is to liberal with their grading.

[coinman_23885]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

Ms. Sperber, says CAC PCGS only in her blog and then auctions NGC holdered coins? Hmm.............

 

It wasn't an auction; the items were direct sales. One was a MS67RB* IHC and the other a PF67 CAM Mercury Dime, both CACed. Both sold in the last 30 days, and I know that Legend paid a strong price on the Dime from Heritage so she must not think all NGC coins are bad.

 

Even (or perhaps, especially) if they had been auction coins, if someone wanted to consign NGC coins that met the minimum values required, it would have been silly for Legend to say no.

 

I don't disagree with what you're saying.

[gmarguli]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

Ms. Sperber, says CAC PCGS only in her blog and then auctions NGC holdered coins? Hmm.............

 

It wasn't an auction; the items were direct sales. One was a MS67RB* IHC and the other a PF67 CAM Mercury Dime, both CACed. Both sold in the last 30 days, and I know that Legend paid a strong price on the Dime from Heritage so she must not think all NGC coins are bad.

 

Even (or perhaps, especially) if they had been auction coins, if someone wanted to consign NGC coins that met the minimum values required, it would have been silly for Legend to say no.

 

Money over morals. Got it. (thumbs u

 

[gmarguli]

She is no longer on the board. She did not seek another term.

 

Since when? She is listed on the ANA website as a Governor and I don't recall getting a new election package from the ANA.

[MarkFeld]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

Ms. Sperber, says CAC PCGS only in her blog and then auctions NGC holdered coins? Hmm.............

 

It wasn't an auction; the items were direct sales. One was a MS67RB* IHC and the other a PF67 CAM Mercury Dime, both CACed. Both sold in the last 30 days, and I know that Legend paid a strong price on the Dime from Heritage so she must not think all NGC coins are bad.

 

Even (or perhaps, especially) if they had been auction coins, if someone wanted to consign NGC coins that met the minimum values required, it would have been silly for Legend to say no.

 

Money over morals. Got it. (thumbs u

 

Edited for typo: How did you get "money over morals" from accepting NGC coins on consignment? Nice stretch, Mr. Elastic Man.