Digital Imaging for a new generation of numismatists... by hightidetech

[CSJournals-migration]

Nothing quite compares to holding a coin in your hand and observing the light as it dances across the surface, revealing all of the intricate details that could be easily overlooked at a passing glance. But a picture is worth a thousand words, and sometimes that is the best, or only way to share your collectible with other people.

 

I got to thinking about the role of technology and social elements of virtually sharing collectibles as I set up one of my IKE Mint sets in a new PCGS online coin folder*. Look no further than David Lawrence's site redesign** and it is obvious that visual appeal is becoming increasingly important for the Numismatic community on the web.

 

Its not enough to go on the grade alone, that is simply a reassurance, and increasingly commoditized, or reduced to a battle of fancy labels and first day issues. This point was made by Charles Morgan and Hubert Walker in the Market Whimsy column of this month's Numismatist in reference to Silver Eagles.

 

But my point, and one that has certainly been raised by others, is that a coin can be CAC'd, MAC'd, PQ'd, and QA'd and you still may personally find it visually displeasing. Depending on your own motivations for collecting, that could be a pretty big deal. But too often, I have seen that buyers and sellers alike depend on the grade, holder, an impartial third party, or price sheet, and an actual photograph is an after thought, or absent entirely from the purchasing decision.

 

There are certainly some instances where poor image quality is used purposefully and deceitfully, but in general, many people just don't give it the time of day. Look on eBay at some of the pictures next to $10,000 coins. Would you buy a car with a picture like that sight unseen?!

 

Set registries are a natural fit for sharing the visual beauty of coin collections, but again they are only as splendid as the photographs used to compose them combined with the site design's ability to leverage it. I'm personally fond of the PCGS TrueView service, not so much in the quality of the photographs themselves, but because it adds value to the coin itself-- a modernization of a customized label. It is also technologically advanced in that I can download a transparent background version of it, and use to make my own coin album in say PhotoShop. Compare that to the NGC photos that I receive as email attachments in lower resolution than what I can take with my own phone, and it is clear there is nothing there but opportunity there.

 

This is what a new generation of numismatists will demand, and although technology may seem cumbersome to those that did not grow up with it, adapting is how we will keep a vibrant and relevant industry for many generations to come.

 

* - http://www.pcgs.com/News/pcgs-digital-coin-album-display-sets-anytime-anywhere

** - https://www.davidlawrence.com/blog/new-web-site-launch-an-update/

 

See more journals by hightidetech

[CaptBrian]

A grade by any other name:

I use that old saying regarding a rose as a reality check for our graded coins. One can alway hire a lawyer and plead a case and convince a jury of peers that a rose is a peach blossom or some other flower, but in reality it is still a rose.

 

If the accepted graders say a coin is a perfect coin, giving it a PF or MS 70, then why can't we let it go at that?

 

Over the years, technology has gone by us daily. As soon as I buy a computer, it is obsolete. When a highway is planned, before it is finished, it is not big enough or the turns are not banked enough and so on and so forth.

 

I'm not sure how many coins have been graded by NGC and PCGS, not to mention the '2nd graders' and now the labelers, but they must number in the millions. I would not say a trillion yet.

 

So, now we have maybe an astronomical number of coins already in slabs and NO ONE can grade a coin through a quarter inch of plastic.

 

The is only two alternatives left. Cut out ALL graded coins, bring them all to 'raw' status, and begin to regrade them again with an electron microscope, (which would show more flaws than a hung jury in the south in the 50's.) and therefore NO coin could be ever again called a 'perfecet coin'.

 

I consider this comment as another journal and will add it in with more comments tomorrow.

 

I have two coins shows coming up this week, therefore I don't have time to make a complete thought, but you get my drift.

 

Let's let is alone, lest we open a Pandora's box and ruin a great hobby.

 

Capt. Brian, the Lost Navigator

[hightidetech]

@CaptBrian,

My observation was not to use technology to improve the accuracy of grading, but for people to take better pictures that are displaying or selling their coins. If NGC had a TrueView like service for instance, I'd pay to reholder my best coins just so that I could have a professional photo before and after being slabbed. On the other hand, the PCGS TrueView photos frequently look different than the coins in person too--almost like they are more of a work of art or an interpretation of the real thing ;-)

[wdrob]

 

@CaptBrian,

If NGC had a TrueView like service for instance, I'd pay to reholder my best coins just so that I could have a professional photo before and after being slabbed.

 

 

NGC Does Have A Imaging Service

 

 

[hightidetech]

Yup, I've used that service, and gotten emails with low res already holdered pictures back that I could have taken better myself. The next service tier sends PDFs. Who posts PDFs on a registry picture, and what kind of derivative work can be created with them? The difference that I tried to enumerate in my original post is that the TrueView photos are hosted and integrated directly in to the set registry and they are bound to the coin itself, not sitting in someone's email inbox.

 

But, I personally also don't have the luxury to travel to many shows, so I rely on the quality of photos online to make my own purchasing decisions, and I've gotten burned on more than one occasion when the coin I thought I was getting shows up in the mail and looks like garbage at worst and different at best.

 

I've also gotten caught in the cross-fire of variety mis-attribution attempting to cross to NGC, because there weren't detailed photos available.

 

NGC Basic Imaging

 

PCGS Basic Imaging

 

A Five Thousand Dollar Coin on Ebay

 

 

NGC Does Have A Imaging Service

 

[wdrob]

 

The next service tier sends PDFs. Who posts PDFs on a registry picture, and what kind of derivative work can be created with them?

 

Actually I can do anything with a .pdf -- for that matter I can do ANYTHING with ANYTHING that is on my computer screen. You mentioned PhotShop so I assume you have a general working knowledge of that application. If so how can you not know how to easily manipulate any image that appears on your screen?

 

 

I will quote someone you may know as it relates directly with your (possibly) rhetorical question above.

 

 

and although technology may seem cumbersome to those that did not grow up with it, adapting is how we will keep a vibrant and relevant industry for many generations to come.

 

 

Maybe you need to adapt ... maybe NGC needs to adapt .... maybe NGC is working on something even better rather than trying to copy what the guy across the street is doing.

 

I will say this much about the David Lawrence site since they "upgraded" it.

 

I hate it!

 

Why they could not have just left it alone I don't know. Now it is so busy with cr ap flying up from every mouse move and menus flying out here and there. It is like attending a circus.

 

Good luck on the continued promotion of PCGS over here at NGC. (thumbs u

 

 

 

 

[CaptBrian]

I see, well, yes, I totally agree. Imaging needs work. I too am high on technology, and a lousy photographer. I am planning to build a photo box in which hangs a digicam, and maybe that will work.

 

A jeweler friend of mine has one. I'm going to go see him when I have time next week and will post my findings here as a reply.

 

Capt. B

[hightidetech]

I'm happily TPG agnostic. In fact I've found it a rather fascinating prospect to build competitive sets in both registries. Thanks for the warm welcome on the boards though, and reminder of the PrtScrn button.

 

 

Good luck on the continued promotion of PCGS over here at NGC.

 

[wdrob]

 

Thanks for the warm welcome on the boards though

 

Well I would have never thought. You came in with such a bang and firmly opinionated I never thought to look at your subsequent post count as anyone that post through the journal it is a bot that posts the message and says:

 

Just got here

 

Registered: 04/20/10

Posts: 0

 

 

I do apologize for that oversight and Welcome!

 

Seriously I would not have gave it one thought to look at your post count based on your posts content.

 

 

[jackson64]

I actually enjoyed your journal. I agree fully with your overall premise that digital photo technology will be an important component of the future of numismatics and its appeal to a next generation--a next generation who is attuned and acclimated to high def and extremely high levels of pixilation with their images.

 

Sometimes on these boards I don't understand the automatic animosity-- it's almost like politics where people appear to be looking constantly for some form of slight that they can jump upon and feel insulted or take up a vanguard of the opposing view.

 

Welcome to the boards-- oh, and before I forget--don't tell everyone on ebay to start using digital. I've known this as a bit of a "secret" for a while. If you buy some nice coins or a slab with bad, blurry, unfocused, scratchy, imaging--then you can almost turn around the following week and resell the item with better images and a more accurate and adjective filled description-- 20 to 30% over what you paid . ( I don't do this often but sometimes for a quick hundred bucks it is worth the effort.)

[jackson64]

PS: I notice on the ebay coin that was attached that the slab has .. MAC/GE.. what is that sticker? a new type of CAC thing?

[RWB]

[Neither of the Ike dollar images restored his hair...]

[hightidetech]

No worries! I have pretty thick skin and welcome open debate and other's insight. My 8 year old son got me in to the hobby recently when we both looked at my Grandfather's coin collection I inherited but haven't opened up in over a decade. We even road tripped this summer to the Denver mint and Carson City museum to learn more, panning for gold and tent camping on the way. I'm a quick read and have already made most of the mistakes any newby numismatist would. Although I expect I will not ever rank at chatzilla level on the board, I hope that my fresh perspective, and unique insight through similar journaling will be interesting to others, even if my IKE series interest has a somewhat limited following ;-)

 

Here are just a few Mistakes Learning opportunities I have had along the way

 

• Overvaluing Raw Morgans
  
• Downgraded cracking/crossing
  
• Buying an Albatross
  
• Mint errors in registries
  
• Internet Auctions
  
• Coin grading 101 to 103
  
• Modern Terminus
  
• Collecting focus and membership management
  
• Price sheets vs demand
  

 

 

I do apologize for that oversight and Welcome!

 

Seriously I would not have gave it one thought to look at your post count based on your posts content.

 

[wdrob]

I actually enjoyed your journal.

 

As did I.

 

I would even go further to say that I believe I payed him the ultimate compliment by assuming he was a well learned person in numismatics based solely on the content of his post, therefore I never once thought he was a first time poster.

 

 

Sometimes on these boards I don't understand the automatic animosity-- it's almost like politics where people appear to be looking constantly for some form of slight that they can jump upon and feel insulted or take up a vanguard of the opposing view.

 

Jackson, I guess you are refering to me since the only other person to respond was Capn.

 

How can correcting someones false statement that NGC does not have a photo service be consider "Animosity"?

 

I never disagreed with his premise I simply pointed out that NGC photo service (although limited in scope by using a .pdf) can be overcome, or a person can "adapt" just as he had made reference to.

 

Now the only other area I can imagine that you perceived animosity was my comment about promoting PCGS over here on NGC's forum. Come on .... are you really going to maintain the position that doing just that, while providing convenient links to the competitions "newest and greatest thing" is proper forum etiquette?

 

Yes, I know. I can hear it being said right at this very moment: "Like you're one to be talking about proper forum etiquette."

 

I will be the first to admit that I am not -- so where are the voices of those worthy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jackson64]

Not you in particular --again, don't be so quick to take offense--I rarely post on the chat rooms because there is very little basic courtesy. There are a few here who are viewed as almost "coin gods" whose every opinion is not allowed to be questioned and are given an almost sickening reverence because they were ex-graders or have dedicated their lives/careers to this pastime...

 

No, I was not talking about you in particular but in general how a new person expressed some personal insight and as usual, several opposing viewpoints erupted over a premise he never was actually making--------

 

He was talking about the value of good images being underrated instead somehow others nitpicked some minute reference to digress against.......

[RWB]

"....automatic animosity..." Yep--there's probably an app for that.

 

Written words are very easy to misinterpret - especially when written and read in a hurry.

[wdrob]

 

He was talking about the value of good images being underrated instead somehow others nitpicked some minute reference to digress against.......

 

Understand and agree that I unintentionally, however certainly, took it far from where he likely intended to go.

 

I believe there can be no dispute that the premise of his post was dead on accurate and insightful. When people have quality goods to sell they seem to have quality pictures more often than not, based on my observations. But I think there is a limit to how far a dealers web site should go before it becomes distracting by adding too much activity. I will still visit David Lawrence when doing my rounds looking for a certain coin but all the glitter and flash has me staying away as a casual window shopper.

 

Although NGC's registry might pale in comparison to another, I have seen some very clever folks "adapt" and create some very impressive and informative presentations despite any previously perceived limitations. I would rather see NGC be creative themselves and come up with an original idea or remain as is before simply trying to copy another, but that is for NGC to prioritize and input from journals entries such as hightide's is definitely the first step in the process so I understand his intentions.

 

Occasionally I am adventurous and a gambler just as you stated Jackson. I find a picture that is almost as if the person was elderly trying to take a steady picture and not intentionally trying to hide a piece of dreck. There have been a few times I have came out on the good end. I too would not want to eliminate that entirely ..

 

 

 

[hightidetech]

Ya, I'm far from a photog myself. Was thinking about trying one of those little mini photo booth type gadgets to see if the soft light was better for trying to photograph holdered coins.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231503328676?lpid=82&chn=ps

 

 

 

I see, well, yes, I totally agree. Imaging needs work. I too am high on technology, and a lousy photographer. I am planning to build a photo box in which hangs a digicam, and maybe that will work.

 

A jeweler friend of mine has one. I'm going to go see him when I have time next week and will post my findings here as a reply.

 

Capt. B

[hightidetech]

Haha! OK, your secret is safe with me

 

I actually enjoyed your journal. I agree fully with your overall premise that digital photo technology will be an important component of the future of numismatics and its appeal to a next generation--a next generation who is attuned and acclimated to high def and extremely high levels of pixilation with their images.

 

Sometimes on these boards I don't understand the automatic animosity-- it's almost like politics where people appear to be looking constantly for some form of slight that they can jump upon and feel insulted or take up a vanguard of the opposing view.

 

Welcome to the boards-- oh, and before I forget--don't tell everyone on ebay to start using digital. I've known this as a bit of a "secret" for a while. If you buy some nice coins or a slab with bad, blurry, unfocused, scratchy, imaging--then you can almost turn around the following week and resell the item with better images and a more accurate and adjective filled description-- 20 to 30% over what you paid . ( I don't do this often but sometimes for a quick hundred bucks it is worth the effort.)

[hightidetech]

Ya, I think and hope that should be the difference between the context of a journal entry and a quick chat post. But I can see how it would be easy to miss given journals cross post to a chat board.

 

"....automatic animosity..." Yep--there's probably an app for that.

 

Written words are very easy to misinterpret - especially when written and read in a hurry.

[hightidetech]

That would be awesome...As I said, there is nothing but opportunity to improve there. A coin folder is a bit gimmicky, but I can certainly see how it would drive more business for their imaging service. Heck, I'm going to re-holder one of my CAC'd coins, showing up as missing in one of the slots. To your earlier point on usability, I agree with your premise about the new DL site. But the images themselves look great ;-)

 

 

I would rather see NGC be creative themselves and come up with an original idea or remain as is before simply trying to copy another..

[RWB]

Reminds me of the old quote:"...and behold a pale registry...."