Is "WINGS" like CAC?

[Alan Glasser]

Hello, Everyone.

 

In looking at Peru Coins on E-Bay, I found the item listed below with a "WINGS" sticker. The seller incorporated it into the listing title so can I "ASSUME" it has some merit...somehow?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1814-Lima-JP-Peru-8-Reales-NGC-and-WINGS-MS63-/181689638545?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4d8bde91

 

Many thanks. MusicAl

[wdrob]

 

Yes but for foreign coins. CAC does not deal with foreign coins.

[coinman_23885]

It is like the CAC of foreign coins; I do not think they post bids for their coins or actively purchase them, however.

[physics-fan3.14]

I wouldn't put much stock in it. They are a self-stickerer. At fun, there are dealers where everything in their case has a sticker. It doesn't mean anything.

[brg5658]

I wouldn't put much stock in it. They are a self-stickerer. At fun, there are dealers where everything in their case has a sticker. It doesn't mean anything.

 

That's not completely true. You can submit world coins to WINGS for review just like you can for CAC. The entire R.Lissner collection was reviewed by WINGS, no self-stickering there. Yes, Lance Tschor (the founder of WINGS) does carry stuff in his cases that meet WINGS standards, but that's different than stickering everything in your case regardless of the quality.

 

By your argument that everything in a case having a sticker implies the sticker doesn't mean anything then most all of the stock of a lot of "premiere" dealers with CAC stickers would also fit that bill.

 

Now, the part about not putting much stock in them I'd agree with. There is little if any demand for a review service like CAC for world coins. Thus, world coin collectors sort of just ignore these little shiny stickers. We like to think that we're not as helpless as a lot of the USA material collectors apparently are -- needing that magical CAC crutch to justify a purchase.

[michael]

not even close...............................

[jgenn]

Well stated, Brandon. I would argue that there is a greater need for a world coin grading review than with US coins simply because of the wider variance of grading standards between NGC and PCGS. From my own experience, I have cracked out two NGC AU details 8 reales that subsequently got AU-58 and MS-62 grades from PCGS. My opinion is not an endorsement of WINGS because I don't know how good they are; I'm just saying that I think the service is needed.

~jack

[coinman_23885]

We like to think that we're not as helpless as a lot of the USA material collectors apparently are -- needing that magical CAC crutch to justify a purchase.

 

That would be a very, very small minority of US coin collectors by the way...

[coinman_23885]

I wouldn't put much stock in it. They are a self-stickerer. At fun, there are dealers where everything in their case has a sticker. It doesn't mean anything.

 

There is a difference between saying that you wouldn't put much stock in it and claiming that it is a self-stickering operation. Brandon is right that it is not a self-stickering organization, regardless of market acceptance or credibility.

[RWB]

But...with wings vs cac you get 2 free letters -- and no duplicate letters, either!

[brg5658]

But...with wings vs cac you get 2 free letters -- and no duplicate letters, either!

 

CAC is 75% of the way to CACA

[Alan Glasser]

First, thank you all for your replies on my topic!!!

 

I need to explain that when CAC was a newborn, I was the ultimate skeptic. I believe I may have posted here in the past that it seemed like a way to just have my certified NGC and PCGS coins simply re-certified and cost me $ in the process. I didn't quite see the point.

 

I'm not a skeptic anymore. I am going through the "maybe when the market picks up, I may sell my collection" syndrome. Hell, I'm 65 and my son is not a collector. When I see the differences in some values for equally graded PCGS or NGC coins with and without CAC stickers, I am starting to believe that there IS merit in seeing if my coins are "premium" for the grade. If CAC can do that for me (I certainly can't with a high degree of accuracy), then it is worth investigating.

 

I feel the same way with WINGS. I believe that any endeavor that is reputable and sincere is worthy of a try. While I don't have many high value certified foreign coins (the cost of the process, shipping and registration both ways is a definite deterrent) SOME coins ARE worth it.

 

I received a couple of personal notes from WINGS that make me feel that there is some sincerity on the part of the owners of this new endeavor. So, I am giving serious thought to giving it a try. The shipping...is a turn off...but might the financial gain be worth it in the long run? I don't know...still thinking it over.

 

If anyone has any first hand experience, I am all ears.

 

Many thanks!!! Very much appreciated.

 

Alan

[World Colonial]

WINGS doesn't make a market in the coins it stickers to my knowledge.

 

Non-US collectors disproportionately do not like TPG, much less a CAC like service. If this is going to happen, it will either require a culture change elsewhere or US collectors will eventually end up owning every single one of these coins because no one else except in isolation pays TPG like premiums. The exception that I know is South Africa and maybe Canada, though I'm not sure whether it is primarily US or Canadian collectors who drive the premiums.

[brg5658]

WINGS doesn't make a market in the coins it stickers to my knowledge.

 

Non-US collectors disproportionately do not like TPG, much less a CAC like service. If this is going to happen, it will either require a culture change elsewhere or US collectors will eventually end up owning every single one of these coins because no one else except in isolation pays TPG like premiums. The exception that I know is South Africa and maybe Canada, though I'm not sure whether it is primarily US or Canadian collectors who drive the premiums.

 

The Australians are becoming quite enamored with TPG graded coins. China is also a bigger recent player, thus one of the reasons why NGC and PCGS have entered the Asian market with offices there. I'm not saying it's "right," but it is more prevalent than just the USA...

 

The UK and German markets seem to be particularly anti-TPG in Europe, but I have also noticed an appreciable uptick in graded coins in Europe in the past 3-4 years also. It's still not common by any means, but 5 years ago I would have probably been in disbelief if I saw even one US TPG graded coin in a European auction.

[World Colonial]

The Australians are becoming quite enamored with TPG graded coins. China is also a bigger recent player, thus one of the reasons why NGC and PCGS have entered the Asian market with offices there. I'm not saying it's "right," but it is more prevalent than just the USA...

 

The UK and German markets seem to be particularly anti-TPG in Europe, but I have also noticed an appreciable uptick in graded coins in Europe in the past 3-4 years also. It's still not common by any means, but 5 years ago I would have probably been in disbelief if I saw even one US TPG graded coin in a European auction.

 

In Australia, I have noticed the PCGS census counts are higher than I would have thought, but not NGC. I saw it after you (I believe) brought up that one "conditional rarity" Australia shilling. I believe Noble Numismatics is the largest action house in that market. I have yet to see a single TPG coin in their auctions in over 10 years, though I have not looked at every single lot. So though there may be an above average number of collectors who prefer TPG, I don't believe it is significant. I rate it with the second highest price level, but apparently most collectors still prefer to spend their money on coins than plastic.

 

China, I know that the NGC census counts are higher than average for moderns like the Panda series, silver and base metal coinage from the 50's and 60's and some earlier coinage. But both of these markets have census counts lower than South Africa.

 

So yes, while there are pockets, in the overall scheme of things, it doesn't amount to much of anything.

 

The other reason I don't believe it will ever amount to much of anything is because of the reasons I provided before, including that in most countries there isn't any quantity of better material that even exists. I don't believe that NGC, PCGS or any other grading service will ever achieve any critical scale unless foreign collectors decide they have to have a disproportionate percentage of moderns and NCLT in plastic. There aren't remotely enough classics for it to happen outside of a few of the countries I list below. There certainly aren't close to 30 million classics to match what I understand NGC and PCGS have slabbed here.

 

I know that NGC and PCGS have done as you state. I am not sure they have "done the math" and considered what exactly is available to be graded. I would really be curious to see the business plan supporting this expansion if it were possible.

 

To summarize, a combination of mostly US collectors supplemented by a relatively low number of locals can certainly adopt this practice for the "best" material and send some of these coins to the moon, driving out most everyone else as has already happened in the United States with a very large percentage of coins that collectors would actually like to buy.

 

If it does happen, I believe it will be with the Anglo countries, Latin coinage and probably segments in the larger markets such as China, Russia and Germany.

 

Even if this does happen, I believe that any prospects for a CAC like service will be even more limited. The market for all of these coins is too fragmented in my opinion for it to work other than for a very low number of them.

 

 

[wdrob]

 

I found it surprising that I once sold a Canadian 1945 (Doubled 5) King George Dollar, I think it was, to a Canadian collector. The coin was a scarce coin because of the doubled 5 and he bought it but was hesitant. Why? He said NGC was notoriously lax with their grading standards.

 

I really didn't know how to answer him on that charge so I just left it alone. But I found it peculiar that this Canadian would put more trust into the TPG company that is Canadian, where they just stick the coin into a 2.5 x 2.5 flip essentially, and then mark on the insert the grade and certification, yet he would find NGC questionable and not trust them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LogPotato]

I saw WINGS at Baltimore. I have never heard of it until Friday. I saw their sign, looked in their case and saw that everyone of their coins had their sticker. I muttered to my friend, "Isn't that convenient? Another dealer self sticker-ing his inventory." This thread has kind of cleared that up for me now. Either way, I have no use for them just like CAC. All my world coins are naked.

[Star City Homer]

I saw them too. I was asked if I knew what a CAC sticker was was and the guy at the table gave me a short spiel about the different bean colors. I probably should have interrupted him, but I was looking in his case at the time....

 

I clarified his is a different group but refrained from pointing out that even I recognize the names of the principles for CAC, but had no idea who he was or what gave him (?) such credibility.

 

On the other hand I looked at the coins in his case as more of a demo showing what kind of things they sticker, rather than thinking it was a dealer trying to enhance his wares. Seemed like nice enough coins, but I didn't take the time to pull any out for a closer look...no Japanese.

 

So who is he and what gives him the background or experience to try and pull this off? I'm seriously curious as I didn't want to ask the guy who the heck he was/why should I care right there on the bourse floor. He seemed nice and polite enough and I'm not so sure my question would have sounded the same, though I didn't mean it as a slam.

[EVillageProwler]

John Albanese is known amongst the U.S. crowd. Whether we value CAC or not, we certainly know JA's bonafides.

 

I know nothing of the folks behind WINGS, and it doesn't help that they don't make a market in their stickered coins unlike EagleEye and CAC.

 

EVP

[brg5658]

John Albanese is known amongst the U.S. crowd. Whether we value CAC or not, we certainly know JA's bonafides.

 

I know nothing of the folks behind WINGS, and it doesn't help that they don't make a market in their stickered coins unlike EagleEye and CAC.

 

EVP

 

I'm in no way saying I think WINGS is needed - but it is run by a qualified world coin dealer. Whether you know his name or not, doesn't mean he isn't qualified. Ask collectors around the world who John Albanese is and nearly none would know him -- ignorance isn't justification for dismissing something or someone.

 

WINGS was founded by Lance Tchor, who has been dealing in world coins for nearly 40 years. He has an eye for quality world material -- but I simply don't think there is a niche for "crutch" type sticker companies for non-USA coins like there is for CAC.

 

Also, if anything, not "making a market" in the coins he stickers makes him MORE objective than CAC IMO. It has become clear that CAC is a loss-leader for Albanese, giving him a steady flow of stickered coins to make his real money by selling them on their "dealer only" Coin Trading boards. Sure, CAC will buy the coin from you, but they have essentially "fixed price guides" that specify near wholesale prices they will pay -- and rarely will offer a one-off premium price for a special coin. At least, that's the experience I have seen everywhere they have made offers outside of generic everyday coins. A coin is already guaranteed for authenticity by the TPG, so CAC adds nothing in that realm.

 

I also don't like that CAC stickers only NGC and PCGS coins -- if a coin is PQ for the grade assigned, then why only sticker coins from 2 among many companies? WINGS will sticker coins graded by PCGS, NGC, ICG, ANACS or ICCS.

 

Again, I don't personally have any need for WINGS, but the company should not be immediately dismissed based on uninformed opinion(s).

[Star City Homer]

 

...

 

WINGS was founded by Lance Tchor, who has been dealing in world coins for nearly 40 years. He has an eye for quality world material --

...

 

 

 

That is the question I was wondering about--but didn't feel like asking in the middle of the show. Like I mentioned above, I really am curious and didn't want to sound adversarial by asking.

 

LT is not someone I know off the top of my head, but that gives me a start in checking him out if I'm so inclined. Courtesy of a quick google-fu I now have faces for names (and know the guy asking me if I knew what CAC was is the tax guy partner).

 

Not sure I am interested in the service, but it is nice to know who the people are, and what their background is.

 

 

[brg5658]

 

...

 

WINGS was founded by Lance Tchor, who has been dealing in world coins for nearly 40 years. He has an eye for quality world material --

...

 

 

 

That is the question I was wondering about--but didn't feel like asking in the middle of the show. Like I mentioned above, I really am curious and didn't want to sound adversarial by asking.

 

LT is not someone I know off the top of my head, but that gives me a start in checking him out if I'm so inclined. Courtesy of a quick google-fu I now have faces for names (and know the guy asking me if I knew what CAC was is the tax guy partner).

 

Not sure I am interested in the service, but it is nice to know who the people are, and what their background is.

 

 

Glad I could help Stork -- but my comments were not directed at you per se.

[mumu]

John Albanese is known amongst the U.S. crowd. Whether we value CAC or not, we certainly know JA's bonafides.

 

I know nothing of the folks behind WINGS, and it doesn't help that they don't make a market in their stickered coins unlike EagleEye and CAC.

 

EVP

 

I'm in no way saying I think WINGS is needed - but it is run by a qualified world coin dealer. Whether you know his name or not, doesn't mean he isn't qualified. Ask collectors around the world who John Albanese is and nearly none would know him -- ignorance isn't justification for dismissing something or someone.

 

WINGS was founded by Lance Tchor, who has been dealing in world coins for nearly 40 years. He has an eye for quality world material -- but I simply don't think there is a niche for "crutch" type sticker companies for non-USA coins like there is for CAC.

 

Also, if anything, not "making a market" in the coins he stickers makes him MORE objective than CAC IMO. It has become clear that CAC is a loss-leader for Albanese, giving him a steady flow of stickered coins to make his real money by selling them on their "dealer only" Coin Trading boards. Sure, CAC will buy the coin from you, but they have essentially "fixed price guides" that specify near wholesale prices they will pay -- and rarely will offer a one-off premium price for a special coin. At least, that's the experience I have seen everywhere they have made offers outside of generic everyday coins. A coin is already guaranteed for authenticity by the TPG, so CAC adds nothing in that realm.

 

I also don't like that CAC stickers only NGC and PCGS coins -- if a coin is PQ for the grade assigned, then why only sticker coins from 2 among many companies? WINGS will sticker coins graded by PCGS, NGC, ICG, ANACS or ICCS.

 

Again, I don't personally have any need for WINGS, but the company should not be immediately dismissed based on uninformed opinion(s).

 

 

I agree on the CAC market and alluded to it in another thread using toned coins as an example. But using their own definition of A and B coins is enough. Neither a fixed market price guide for buybacks, nor their very own sticker for that matter, differentiates between A and B coins. So A coin sellers are getting B coin prices? Not to mention it opens up the door for yet another sticker service to differentiate between A and B CAC coins, which IMO is just as legitimate, maybe even moreso than a service that knocks C coins out of the mix, given that C coins are easier to spot than A vs B coins.

[EVillageProwler]

Brandon,

 

You're right in pointing out that I was looking at WINGS from a U.S. market perspective. That I don't know LT is no indication of his lack of bonafides.

 

EVP