Your opinion on having Proof coins Graded
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When my mom passed away I cataloged her coin set and I've realized the nice little Proof Commemorative coins she purchased from the US mint over the years are worth a LOT more if they are graded than just left in their nice little boxes with COAs.

 

**This, of course is if they are graded a PF 70 ULTRA CAMEO, since the coins have never been removed from their "airtite" holders they should grade a 70**

 

Even if I had to pay up to $50 per coin for grading, I would still be ahead several hundred dollars.

 

Just wondering... if it were you, would you keep the coins as they are or send them to be graded.

 

Don't know if it matters, but I don't want to sell the coins..just want to keep passing them on to the next generation.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

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In the vast majority of cases, I would not get them graded.

 

The fact that they have not been removed from their holders does not in any way, ensure that they will grade 70.

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Most of the coins that are minted in the modern era are essentially perfect. That being said it doesn't mean that they will grade MS or PF 70. If you look at the statistics of 69 to 70 I would expect that 30% or so would go 70 and the remainder 68 or 69. The price drop is pretty steep from 70 to 69 and a lot of the coins you are talking about wouldn't benefit from that price drop.

 

All in all, I guess you could say, it depends on which coins they are and how much you want to gamble.

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First off, just because they are in original mint packaging does not mean they will grade a 70. Usually less than half grade a 70 in the older years and a little more than half in the last few years. Some like the Unc army half ant Unc 5 star general half only graded a few 70's. I have even had a few come back 68. So for your comparison I would use 69 when looking up prices realized.

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Thanks for all the info - if they do not grade a 70 then there is no reason to have them graded.

 

But I just don't get it. If you look at the coins, and I've done it with a 10x loop, I see absolutely no flaws at all. But in doing research for this I've seen a coin thought was a perfect 70, it was only graded a 69. What the heck? What do they see that would take it to a 69?

 

Honestly the grading is so subjective.

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You might want to have them slabbed anyway just to protect them. I sent in an old mint set that belonged to my grandfather, not expecting high grades at all, but only to have them in a slab and protected.

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You might want to have them slabbed anyway just to protect them. I sent in an old mint set that belonged to my grandfather, not expecting high grades at all, but only to have them in a slab and protected.

 

You can protect them, just fine, by other means, without that unnecessary expense.

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You might want to have them slabbed anyway just to protect them. I sent in an old mint set that belonged to my grandfather, not expecting high grades at all, but only to have them in a slab and protected.

 

You can protect them, just fine, by other means, without that unnecessary expense.

Such as leaving them in the OGP.

 

Blindly submitting coins is a two edged sword in that a perfectly acceptable modern commemorative, suddenly becomes unsellable in a PR68 Slab. Not that it couldn't be sold but more like you'd hate selling it at such a low price.

 

Coins should always be prescreened prior to submission and not by someone who has no idea what to look for. The only thing they'd ever see would be a Perfect 70 since they'd have no basis for making a grading opinion.

 

 

Edited by 19Lyds

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Most of the coins you mention will not "grade MS70," The whole MS70 craze by some is simply sick.

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When you stated you do not want to sell them you answered your own question

 

In 30 years that packaging may be worth more than a certified 70

 

Submit when that time comes if necessary

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Many collectors can not tell the difference between a PF70 and PF69 or even a PF70 and a PF68. Anything below PF70 would result in a loss for a good number of dates, and the odds are favorable that most would not come back PF70 (or the price would presumably be lower with increased supply if they were as easy to make). Unless you can tell the difference, you are wasting your money. I would also grade them only if you plan to liquidate them immediately. I worry often with moderns that prices for top pop coins will plummet because of new coins. As Roger points out, I think this is a very dangerous and unwise market - the difference in price is larger than the difference in quality to justify the premiums on common coins in many instances, but that is just a matter of personal opinion. There is no doubt that others will disagree.

 

If you decide to try it, the difference on most moderns between the PF69 and PF70 involve a few pinpoint breaks in cameo often that separate the former from the latter. This isn't always true, but it is for a number of them. There should be no hazing, no spotting, and no marks using normal magnification to qualify for a 70.

 

Edited: If the coin is toned, depending on the degree and desirability of toning, my answer might change, and yes, in that instance, collectors will sometimes pay-up for common coins with toning deemed desirable. This is often contingent upon TPG certification and agreement that the toning is natural or at least market acceptable. If the coin is toned, images would be needed to advise you properly.

Edited by coinman_23885

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Thanks for all the info - if they do not grade a 70 then there is no reason to have them graded.

 

But I just don't get it. If you look at the coins, and I've done it with a 10x loop, I see absolutely no flaws at all. But in doing research for this I've seen a coin thought was a perfect 70, it was only graded a 69. What the heck? What do they see that would take it to a 69?

 

Honestly the grading is so subjective.

 

It can be very subjective, but quite often the flaw that makes the difference is a "hole" in the Proof surface that was there when the coin was struck. A PR-70 is not just a perfectly preserved coin; it is also a perfectly made coin.

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"A PR-70 is not just a perfectly preserved coin; it is also a perfectly made coin."

 

True....and different from Dr. Sheldon's definition.

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"A PR-70 is not just a perfectly preserved coin; it is also a perfectly made coin."

 

True....and different from Dr. Sheldon's definition.

PR70's are like getting chocolate on Halloween Night.

 

Some houses just give them out while others make you work for them.

 

And that's the truth! Pfffft!

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383 posts

I recently had an anniversary gift coin graded for the protection factor. I fully did not expect it to grade a PF70 Ultra Cameo considering how few get that grade and was OK with that. I was pleasantly surprised to have received the top grade.

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I agree with you MJO. I recently had a 1999P SBA coin graded. It was straight from the mint, never opened stored in a safe. I looked it over with various magnification and could not see any flaws.

So I felt confident I could get my first MS70 Proof coin....No it came back as PR69DCAM.

 

I kind of think the bigger dealers get the benefit of the doubt when grading coins.

 

It's got to be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a proof 69 and 70 yet the difference in price is substantial.

 

OK group What do you think about that statement?

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I agree James, there is a very large gap in price, but I think to a point it is reasonable because there are far less 70's than 69's. I usually can't tell the difference. I don't collect moderns, so I don't see that stuff too often.

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I agree with you MJO. I recently had a 1999P SBA coin graded. It was straight from the mint, never opened stored in a safe. I looked it over with various magnification and could not see any flaws.

So I felt confident I could get my first MS70 Proof coin....No it came back as PR69DCAM.

 

I kind of think the bigger dealers get the benefit of the doubt when grading coins.

 

It's got to be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a proof 69 and 70 yet the difference in price is substantial.

 

OK group What do you think about that statement?

 

I personally do not understand why there seems to be this general idea that "bigger dealers" get some sort of backroom handshake, or other secret deals that lead to the better grades.... I hear it constantly, "oh, I could never get a grade like that, they only give grades like that to the "big guys", and all sorts of other crazy conspiracies.... For anyone who says and/or believes this non sense, I would encourage you to educate yourself on how to grade said coin, see what the graders see, and then lets have that discussion.

 

I am not even a blip on the radar as far as being a dealer is concerned, and when I am submitting coins that are where my experience and focus has been ( my specialty), I can accurately grade that coin 9 out of 10 times or better... The coin is either a 66, or a 69, or 68, or 70, etc... no matter who submits it. it is what it is... (obviously there is the "subjectivity" issue, and although I do acknowledge that as being a factor, it is pretty minimal in what I deal in...

 

For everyone who cant see the difference between a 69 and a 70 proof in this case, do some homework.... I guarantee there is one and that it has nothing to do with who submits it. If you think it boils down to the "submitter", then maybe you need to learn how to grade, like that "big dealer" can, then, you too can see why big dealer gets better grades than you.... cause big successful dealer knows what they are doing, and sends the top grade stuff in, while not wasting time and money trying to grade the lower stuff...

 

Im sure I am going to get blasted about this comment, so for anyone who does, I welcome any and all FACTS.. lets discuss real life happenings and not just conspiracy THEORIES...

 

PS- Jamesf, this isn't meant to be rude, or offensive to you, so please don't take it that way, I fully understand how it is possible to feel like the bigger dealers get special treatment on their grades. being one who has, I feel anyone can become as good as that "big dealer" and/or the professional grader, on a particular coin/series, and once at that level, next step is learning how to find those top grade coins raw, so you can send them in and get top grades for yourself... as a small time tiny dealer or whatever it might be...

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I recently got a couple of silver eagles in NGC slabbed MS-69 at spot price.

 

I looked at each one of them kinda close and easily saw a nick or flaw on each one. I think anyone who looked at them could have seen those flaws. So why were they even submitted?

 

Nice protective slab, I guess I will just keep them entombed.

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I recently got a couple of silver eagles in NGC slabbed MS-69 at spot price.

 

I looked at each one of them kinda close and easily saw a nick or flaw on each one. I think anyone who looked at them could have seen those flaws. So why were they even submitted?

 

Nice protective slab, I guess I will just keep them entombed.

 

More than likely they were submitted by a dealer who had them shipped directly from the mint to the 3pg. probably was a bulk submission, with MS69's being the minimum grade, they grade only the 69/70's and the ones that don't meet that min grade get sent back raw... because its bulk, its a discounted rate as well.

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Thanks for your reply. I could discuss this you for hours and exchange example coins.

I don't have any knowledge of big coin dealers getting preferential treatment, but it sure seems weird that a place like govmint can mass sell Liberty Silver Dollar MS 70 coins.

 

Do they submit 20000 coins and get them all graded at MS70? If not all the coins are graded at MS70 how do they sell the rest? There must be some deal with the grading company

 

They purchased them at the same place we all did.

 

How does a 40 year long collector or a beginning collector become an expert at determing the difference between MS grades.

 

I've looked at all the internent info. I'm a member of PGCS, NGS, Heritage etc. I'm lacking at reading books, but does that really make a difference between your eye grading a Columbus 1892 Half Dollar compared to the pictures on the interweb?

 

I think this is one of the major problems with the Hobby. People like the original poster (MJO) will get discouraged with the possible unfairness associated with grading coins, and instead of actively participating in the hobby will simply give up

 

Thanks again for your response and sorry for the rant

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I agree with you MJO. I recently had a 1999P SBA coin graded. It was straight from the mint, never opened stored in a safe. I looked it over with various magnification and could not see any flaws.

So I felt confident I could get my first MS70 Proof coin....No it came back as PR69DCAM.

 

I kind of think the bigger dealers get the benefit of the doubt when grading coins.

 

It's got to be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a proof 69 and 70 yet the difference in price is substantial.

 

OK group What do you think about that statement?

 

 

jamesf,

 

If you really want to improve your grading skills, I highly recommend you take an ANA grading class, either at the Summer Seminar or at one of the larger shows (when they're offered).

 

I think that if you do, you'll begin to appreciate how highly skilled the TPG graders are and how many thousands and thousands of coins they've seen and graded.

 

Grading is just like anything else: if you've done it several thousand times and some other guy has done it a hundred times, there's just no comparison in skill levels.

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One place you might start is looking at the census for the coins you might want to submit, that will give you an indication of the grades being assigned. A lot of talk here was for moderns, then in the end an old coin was brought up. The census here would help immensely also

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/silver-commemoratives-pscid-71/1892-columbian-50c-ms-coinid-19296

 

You can see what most graded at and prices at auction

Edited by newprepper

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jamesf,

 

As has been mentioned on this thread, bulk submissions get a discounted price. Big dealers really do send in a ton of coins to be graded - the MS-70s sell for enough to make it worth their while. I understand that the MS-69s are often sold on eBay - for less than their "retail" cost of grading.

 

The way any veteran or beginning collector learns to become an expert grader is by taking a grading class and learning from experts.

 

If you're trying to grate high-grade MS coins by looking at pictures on the Internet, you're results will be suboptimal. If you haven't read the grading books to learn what the TPGs look for in high-grade MS coins, your results will be suboptimal.

 

Actually, I think one of the major "problems" with the Hobby is that people think doing all "this" is easy - it's not, it takes time and effort and study.

 

A friend of mine was a grader for one of the TPGs a few decades ago. He told me about one time when he was given a 1,000-count bag of Ike dollars (back when Ikes were "ultra moderns") and told to pick out the highest-grading coins. He said he "nearly went blind."

 

I would say that 99% of collectors who think they can grade high-grade MS coins have never gone through this sort of exercise.

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Do they submit 20000 coins and get them all graded at MS70? If not all the coins are graded at MS70 how do they sell the rest?

No they send in 20,000 and get back 7 or 8,000 70's that they sell for a high price and then wholesale out the rest of the coins to other dealers at a small loss to them but at a price where the dealers can make a little.

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247 posts

there are some moderns worth grading

may I suggest you type a list starting from the oldest to the newest

of just the modern commems.

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Thanks DaveG

 

What if you live in a rural area and the grading shows are not viable option, or the collector has some type of disability and can not get to one of these classes. Do the books really supplement the expertise needed to properly grade a coin?

 

 

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jamesf,

 

I found the grading guides very helpful when I was first starting out - if nothing else, they gave me an idea of what to look for and cured me of the idea that I could grade as well as an experienced grader.

 

If you're primarily interested in very high grade MS moderns, then I'd recommend the PCGS grading guide. I recommend the first edition (which came out about 10 or 15 years ago or so) because it's larger (8 1/2' x 11") than the second edition, so the pictures are bigger.

 

The first edition appears on eBay from time to time; you might also try one of the numismatic booksellers or the numismatic book auctions.

 

Someone else may be able to comment on which of the more recent grading guides address high grade MS moderns well.

 

Ultimately, if you're not able to improve your in-person grading skills, you might want to consider buying coins that are already in the plastic you want at the grade you want - that might be cheaper in the long run than submitting coins yourself and being disappointed time after time.

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It seems as if some collectors of ultra modern coins are really only interested in learning two levels of grading: “MS/PF 70” or “NOT MS/PF 70”. 

If this is the case, then perhaps your coin grading skills don’t need to be all that carefully sharpened. Learn the basic criteria expectations, watch some YouTube videos, get some basic equipment, and do your own rough assessment to see if you can find enough disqualifying factors on the coin that would likely preclude it from getting a ‘perfect’ 70 score.  

Collectors of this type aren’t really interested in discerning between 67/68/69, etc. I’m not trying to judge too harshly here, but if you’re looking to just get a perfect grade and flip the coin, then maybe this is as deep as your grading skills need to get. You get to dip your toe firsthand into the world of grading and maybe save yourself some money by not submitting sub-70 coins.  

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229 posts

I have purchased quite a few PF70 coins for addition to my registry sets, and I can tell you this much:  If all of my "perfect" 70 coins were carefully cracked out (undamaged) and resubmitted, they would almost all come back as 69's (and maybe a few 68's).  I have not seen a perfect, flawless 70 coin yet.  So, if a few microscopic hidden flaws are o.k. on 70's, than grading really does become subjective and variable.  And a bulk submission of raw coins, with a "only grade the 70's" designation will yield a higher average number of 70's than a single coin submission.  It's basic economics, and the third party graders only make money on coins that are graded.  They want to make money too.

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