Right Plastic / Wrong Plastic

[BROADSTRUCK]

With the recent guarantee changes they look all about the same on paper these days.

 

Since now all 5 grading services just cover coins being genuine and will review if considered over graded.

 

PCGS

 

NGC

 

ANACS

 

ICG

 

SEGS

[RWB]

Authenticity can be objectively determined. "Grading" cannot.

[coinman_23885]

I don't think PCGS's guarantee carries much, if any weight at all, and I think the company has been abusive in its attempts to dodge liability under its guarantee. In my opinion, upon encapsulation, the guarantee and all contractual obligations and benefits regulated therein attach to the coin. These rights and obligations only terminate upon the agreement of the parties and/ or their successors, by material abuse, or by opening the slab. I don't see then, how PCGS believes that it can retroactively and unilaterally amend the guarantee such as to substantially alter the original submitter's bargain. More specifically, I am bothered by the retroactive elimination of the copper guarantee for transfers after a certain date (even though covered by the guarantee at the time of submission and encapsulation) or if the owner is unable to prove date of transfer. This materially affects the liquidity of certain coins and can cause detrimental reliance by third parties who may not be aware to PCGS's new policy.

 

I am also concerned that PCGS has shown a propensity to refuse to honor its guarantee for coins that were, based on their standards and in my opinion over graded. For instance, PCGS publicly refused to honor its guarantee of the MS70 Eisenhower Dollar claiming a mechanical error. This is troublesome as what exactly constitutes a mechanical error with respect to grade?

 

Next, I am troubled by the PVC provisions of both the PCGS and NGC guarantees. While I certainly understand that slight residues might not be detectable at encapsulation, what about for traces of PVC that were there at the time of grading and could/should have been detected? The way the provision reads, it is broad enough to exempt such coins. To add insult to injury, PCGS now charges to remove the PVC. If PVC is such a problem, why not force submitters to agree to have high dollar pieces rinsed in acetone prior to encapsulation?

 

I won't comment on the other services as I feel they are pretty irrelevant in today's market.

[Nutmeg Coin]

NGC's guarantee is better, but don't expect to get more than a credit toward future submissions, which is fine with me. I spoke with a collector yesterday who had a 1911-D $2 1/2 Indian graded MS60 by NGC. He sent it to PCGS twice to crossover, once in the old slab and once in the new slab; no dice on that one and then he sent it in to NGC under their guarantee. They denied the claim. Frankly I don't see the imperative that NGC needed to pay out on that, but I didn't see the coin. He has lots of options since it is in the holder as they say and even if it technically has friction, there are many people looking for the date as a hole filler.

 

Under-capitalized companies like ANACS and ICG cannot afford to honor their guarantees with coins that would be acceptable like PCGS and NGC coins when people do higher end guarantee submissions. So ANACS offers no guarantee on their blue holder coins as well as their small white holder coins, they will not put them in their gold current holders. ICG has changed ownership and the business manager calls the shots; so if he says we need to bump up the 63 coins to 64s and 65s in type gold they do it. There is a quantum difference between $1000 differentials and $50 collector differentials. The more risk there is the more cautious collectors need to be with coins they buy.

 

 

[yonico]

As long as the TPG'S do the review of the grade/authenticity themselves, and they determine the market value of the coin themselves, I don't see any value or "insurance" in any of their guarantees.

 

In addition, you pay the grading fee for a secure air-right plastic slab, but when a coin turns in the holder, they would often send it back to You claiming that it is due to inappropriate storage conditions or environmental damage and these are not covered under their guarantee.

 

 

[bstrauss3]

Under-capitalized companies like ANACS and ICG cannot afford to honor their guarantees with coins that would be acceptable like PCGS and NGC coins when people do higher end guarantee submissions. So ANACS offers no guarantee on their blue holder coins as well as their small white holder coins, they will not put them in their gold current holders.

 

No

 

ANACS white and blue holders were the product of completely different organizations of which the present ANACS is merely the successor in name.

 

ANACS White holders with the Gold hologram were slabbed when the service was owned by the ANA. Highly respected, but also a long time ago. Most of these coins (although not all) would grade 1-2 points higher given today's standards.

 

White slabs with the Black slab and redish A were from the period when Amos Press owned ANACS. A lot of these will grade 1-2 points higher given today's standards.

 

Somewhere in there the holders changed and the organization was sold to Anderson Press.

 

I don't think ANYONE can say that Amos Press (publisher of Coin World) and Anderson Press (W.E. Harris and Whitman Publishing) are not fine, upstanding companies. But they are for-profit companies and their grading was driven by market considerations and so is not as highly respected.

 

You can clearly see it in the GreySheets. Pick a coin, oh, 1880 Morgan $1 in MS64. I have the December 6, 2013 in hand.

 

PCGS........... $ 125

NGC............. 125

ANACS......... 62

ICG............... 63

 

but also

 

NCI............... 40

PCI............... 40

SEGS........... 60

 

So clearly THE MARKET penalizes ANACS for it's history - if that early generation coin crosses over at MS64, it wasn't the PLASTIC that devalued it, but the history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

At the end of 2007 it was sold again:

 

http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=3589

 

 

"The buyer is Driving Force, LLC, owned by James Taylor, a former head of the grading service put in place when Anderson first purchased it from Amos Press in 2005. It was Taylor who led the firm's move from Ohio to Austin, Texas, and is now leading the firm's move to Colorado. Taylor's career also included stints at Independent Coin Grading and the American Numismatic Association."

 

If you have a blue label reslabbed, it keeps it's blue label unless you pay a new fee to have it graded fresh in the yellow slab. I don't think its a big surprise that the new owners decline to take responsibility for the acts of the prior owners.

 

[coinman_23885]

As long as the TPG'S do the review of the grade/authenticity themselves, and they determine the market value of the coin themselves, I don't see any value or "insurance" in any of their guarantees.

 

In addition, you pay the grading fee for a secure air-right plastic slab, but when a coin turns in the holder, they would often send it back to You claiming that it is due to inappropriate storage conditions or environmental damage and these are not covered under their guarantee.

 

 

I agree. The guarantee is based truly on reputation and trust. Some services do better than others.

[dimefreak]

One of the #1 reasons I'm getting away from monster toned coins is because I want to utilize the knowledge I've obtained and begin collecting raw coins. I'm afraid to be holding raw toners and them changing colors on me. Today it seems raw coins are a steal! Everybody needs there hand held by a TPG! I've been turned off by the TOP POP prices, special favors, crazy labels, inconsistencies, etc. Many on this forum are plenty knowlegable enough to buy raw problem free coins. I encourage you all to step out of your comfort zone and utilize your advantage (knowledge) to obtain some great coins at great prices!

[TonerGuy]

I encourage you all to step out of your comfort zone and utilize your advantage (knowledge) to obtain some great coins at great prices!

 

Been doing that with toned Peace $ for 15 yrs.

[Kurtdog]

One of the #1 reasons I'm getting away from monster toned coins is because I want to utilize the knowledge I've obtained and begin collecting raw coins. I'm afraid to be holding raw toners and them changing colors on me. Today it seems raw coins are a steal! Everybody needs there hand held by a TPG! I've been turned off by the TOP POP prices, special favors, crazy labels, inconsistencies, etc. Many on this forum are plenty knowlegable enough to buy raw problem free coins. I encourage you all to step out of your comfort zone and utilize your advantage (knowledge) to obtain some great coins at great prices!

Congratulations on this brilliant intellectual achievement. I think you just reached the first plateau.

 

PS: There's a higher level, still, but you're getting there. Just trust me when I tell you that. You're going in the right direction. In a nut, it's simply the stark realization that the vast majority of collectors don't know what they like, anymore, they really, really need to be told that.

[Conder101]

Since now all 5 grading services just cover coins being genuine

Read those guarantees again. PCGS and NGC specifically guarantee authenticity, ANACS only guarantees it for the yellow label slabs, and neither ICG or SEGS specifically mention guaranteeing authenticity at all. (Untill around 2006 neither did NGC or PCGS.)

[coinman_23885]

Since now all 5 grading services just cover coins being genuine

Read those guarantees again. PCGS and NGC specifically guarantee authenticity, ANACS only guarantees it for the yellow label slabs, and neither ICG or SEGS specifically mention guaranteeing authenticity at all. (Untill around 2006 neither did NGC or PCGS.)

 

Would you happen to know where archived copies of the various guarantees and amendments can be found? I know this is up your alley (it goes hand in hand with slabs), and I was hoping you might know.

[bstrauss3]

grab the URL and visit the Internet Archive's wayback machine...

 

http://archive.org/web/

 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

grab the URL and visit the Internet Archive's wayback machine...

 

http://archive.org/web/

 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html

 

 

 

Thanks for this! I was hoping to go back before PCGS or NGC actually started websites.

 

Edited: I am surprised that the internet archive has this data going back to 1996, Very neat!

[RWB]

ANAAB = American Numismatic Association Authentication Bureau.

ANACS = American Numismatic Association Certification Service.

 

The primary purpose is, and always was, authentication.

[Conder101]

Those are two different firms although they were both owned by the ANA.

 

ANACS started out as just authentication, grading was added later. And at that time ANACS did guarantee the authenticity. Even after it was sold to Amos Press and later Anderson Publications they continued to guarantee the authenticity of all ANACS slabbed coins. After it was purchased by Driving Force the guarantee remained until they introduced their own yellow label slab around Aug 2008. Since then they have only specifically guaranteed authenticity for coins in their yellow slab.

 

ANAAB can into existence a few years after the sale of ANACS (probably a non-competition clause in the sale contract with Amos Press) and it was always only concerned with authenticity, and they did guarantee such.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Just curious what the guarantee of authenticity meant in terms of $$ value if the coin proves to be a fake? Does the authentication guarantee mean that they are on the hook for current auction records of that coin? And since ANACS in under new management, they assume no responsibility for the Blue holder and small holder coins.

[Conder101]

Does the authentication guarantee mean that they are on the hook for current auction records of that coin?

No. I can't say for sure about ANACS, but for PCGS and NGC the compensation is based on the FMV (Fair Market Value) of the coin AS DETERMINED BY THE GRADING SERVICE. They don't go by their own price guides, they don't go by auction records, and they don't go by what the collector paid for the coin. I'm sure they use some factors from each but there is no way to know how they come up with an exact price. One thing to consider is they don't normally allow for premiums paid for unusual coins. For example super high premiums paid for toned coins or for rare die states are not compensated for.

 

And since ANACS in under new management, they assume no responsibility for the Blue holder and small holder coins.

From their guarantee as written that seems to be the case.

[TonerGuy]

but for PCGS and NGC the compensation is based on the FMV (Fair Market Value) of the coin AS DETERMINED BY THE GRADING SERVICE. They don't go by their own price guides, they don't go by auction records, and they don't go by what the collector paid for the coin. I'm sure they use some factors from each but there is no way to know how they come up with an exact price. One thing to consider is they don't normally allow for premiums paid for unusual coins. For example super high premiums paid for toned coins or for rare die states are not compensated for.

 

Does anyone know if PCGS or NGC has ever been sued over the arbitrariness of their guaranty in regards to pricing ?

 

Seems like it would be rip for such a lawsuit, even on a class action basis.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Current PCGS price guide for generic MS65 Saints is $2300, while MS64 issues is $1630. On $20 Libs. 65s are priced at $3600 and 64s at $2090. The market reality is not so rosy. They use these prices for the % charge of "restoration" service and crossovers. Do they use the same %s on their guarantees for overgraded material?

[Conder101]

Does anyone know if PCGS or NGC has ever been sued over the arbitrariness of their guaranty in regards to pricing ?

I don't think so, and you would probably have a hard time winning. They state their rules and what they will do in the guarantee, and by submitting for compensation under the guarantee you are agreeing to their rules. Trying to change the outcome after the fact would be a longshot.