1859-S Seated Half Dollar

[physics-fan3.14]

It is clearly uncirculated but what grade would you apply? The nicks have me a little concerned but I still think I got a deal. This is the biggest purchase so far in my budding numismatic career...

 

It is not "clearly uncirculated." In fact, the coin looks like an AU to me. I'd wager it comes back AU details, Cleaned.

 

When you get it in hand, take 5 or 10 minutes to closely examine the coin, compare it to the photographs, learn from it - and then promptly return it. If you get out of this one for free or the price of shipping, consider it a great lesson learned.

[Nokesville-migration]

Thanks Bill, that was the honest, here is the situation information that I was looking for.

[Nokesville-migration]

I contacted GSC, their reply:

 

 

Thanks for your recent business and communication on this. In our opinion this coin has not been cleaned. If we feel as if a coin has been cleaned or altered we’ll notate that in the title or subtitle. I assure you that we would never intentionally misrepresent a coin with our stated opinion or with the images provided. We do our best to reveal all aspects of the coin such as strike, wear, contact marks, toning, and so on. We strongly encourage every customer to make their own educated assessment both when viewing the images in addition to when they receive the coin in hand. Because grading is subjective there are naturally going to be differences of opinion.

 

Despite our best efforts, of course the images will never be as good as having the coin in hand to reveal all aspects. You should however be able to move the coin around under proper lighting and see the coin as seen in the images. Now of course there are going to be different angles and ways light hit that coin that will cause it to look different or reveal something you otherwise are not able to see. Reason being, you simply can not see all aspects of the coin in one image. We do our best to reveal as much of the coin as possible and to provide an accurate representation. We do not alter the images or alter the coins. For example, with this 1859-S should be able to clearly see the tan/brown patina and areas of toning, darker toning above the eagles wing, a full shield and strong lettering in “LIBERTY”, and some of the various contact marks on the arm and just in front of her face for example.

 

With that being said, we'll gladly honor a full refund should you ever have any reservations after getting a coin in hand to make your own assessment of the coin. In addition, if you notify us that you wish to submit a coin for grading we will gladly extend the return policy should it not receive a grade you are satisfied with. We are very easy to work with. We do our absolute best to be upfront and accurate but understand there are bound to be differences of opinion from time to time as grading is subjective in nature. Again, we encourage all customers to make their own personal assessment of a coin whether it is raw or certified by a grading service. While we would never intentionally misrepresent a coin we acknowledge that there are going to be times when customers simply have a difference of opinion or we simply miss the mark with our honest assessment of a coins grade. Your satisfaction is our top priority so we are always happy to work with you.

 

It is my hopes that I have addressed your concerns. If you need anything else or have any questions don’t hesitate to let me know. Our toll free number is 1-888-409-8344 if you’d like to discuss further. Based on the tracking number it looks like you should receive the coin within the next day or two. Feel free to take your time, examine it, and after you have made your own assessment please let us know how you’d like to proceed. Again, if you have any reservations about the grade/condition simply return the coin for a full refund. If you are happy with the condition it is then your decision as to whether or not to submit the coin for grading and what grade you feel the grading services should grade the coin. Regardless, we extend the return policy should you not be happy with their opinion. In either case we will also reimburse your return shipping cost to us as well as a measure of good faith. Have a great day!

[Nokesville-migration]

I don't know how you can go wrong with that kind of customer service... I suppose you could be out a few bucks for grading, but what if it does fit the bill and they are just trying to get rid of inventory? They seem to be a large company that might not be trying to extract every penny out of every piece of inventory. I appreciate everyone's opinion, which is why I posted the coin in the first place, Im looking forward to how it looks and will hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

[Kurtdog]

This reminds of the line from a W.C. Fields movie. He sits down to play poker with a mark.

 

The mark asks, "Is this a game of chance?"

 

"No" the great comedian replies, "Not a game of chance at all."

That's from, My Little Chickadee (1940). The line is, "Not the way I play it, no."

 

I just know these things.

[copper toning]

Bought 2 coins from GSC I recieved. Both were cleaned and both were returned.

 

Later I won a certified coin for GSC. Never recieved the coin. Was refunded and told the coin was lost in shipping.

 

One week later the coin was relisted and resold.

 

If you think paying $705 + fees for an AU details coin worth under $200 is a small loss you are better off than most.

 

You are clearly learning the ropes. I would suggest starting with certified coins. Then if you want to gamble you have something to compare it to.

 

Jim

 

I do wish you luck, but I am positve GSC knows what they have and would not give it away.

[BillJones]

I don't know how you can go wrong with that kind of customer service... I suppose you could be out a few bucks for grading, but what if it does fit the bill and they are just trying to get rid of inventory? They seem to be a large company that might not be trying to extract every penny out of every piece of inventory. I appreciate everyone's opinion, which is why I posted the coin in the first place, Im looking forward to how it looks and will hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

 

The acid test to see if a dealer is treating you fairly is to go out and try to sell what you have purchased. You can't expect to make a profit or even break even, but you should expect to get offers that are at least 60 or 70 percent of what you paid on coins that are worth say $100 **or so. If you getting responses like, "That coin has been cleaned (polished, whizzed, plugged etc.) and I can only pay you ( a small fraction) of what paid," you are getting hosed. Flowery language cannot make up for cash on the nail.

 

** The mark-up for very cheap coins is higher, sometimes much higher than it is for better material. The reason is that for inexpensive coins the "service charge" for handling them is greater that their numismatic value.

[Nokesville-migration]

Thanks, keep it coming... and it wasn't delivered yesterday so I just hope I am around when they try to deliver it today. I just received the 7th Edition ANA Grading Standards Book, it seems to have a lot of general information about grading and for any given series it highlights the important aspects, i.e., where it will wear first and some hallmarks for different grades and it includes pictures. Does anyone recommend any other publication or source for learning grading techniques? Thanks, again.

[Nokesville-migration]

Will you please elaborate on why you think it is an AU Details coin, based on the pictures provided? The ANA book that I have says that I need to look for wear on her head above the eye, on her right breast, and on her right knee. As for the reverse, I need to look at the eagle's neck. Based on the picture, both of these areas show no wear or at least I don't think they show any wear. The book doesn't make any mention about wear on the rim of the coin, which is somewhat evident on the reverse. I would be very interested in the specific details of why anyone thinks it would grade AU details; other than just making the statement. Also, it seems that the patina pattern/toning looks similar to legit uncleaned coin pictures that are in the ANA book and on the NGC auction website/database (whatever you call it). Can anyone provide more information about why they think it is cleaned? Thanks in advance.

[Mark T]

Thanks, keep it coming... and it wasn't delivered yesterday so I just hope I am around when they try to deliver it today. I just received the 7th Edition ANA Grading Standards Book, it seems to have a lot of general information about grading and for any given series it highlights the important aspects, i.e., where it will wear first and some hallmarks for different grades and it includes pictures. Does anyone recommend any other publication or source for learning grading techniques? Thanks, again.

 

 

The ANA grading book is not going to help you decipher if the coin has been cleaned. You are to new at this and need – well a lot of practice !! The nice response you got from GSC is normal from them – they are very good with their return policy – they have to be.

I will make this real simple – do you think they would let a $1300 - $1500 coin go at $705 ??

What I am saying is their assurance that the coin is not cleaned is meaningless – they sell a lot of cleaned coins – some they make note of other they don’t. Their grading standards are very loose , usually by at least 3 points and many of the coins have problems that are hidden by their photos. I am going to guess you have an AU58 details coin which is worth less than $500.

 

[Mark T]

Lets have some fun . Guess the grades GSC gave these coins and then guess what you think the real grades would be.

 

These are my photos - they were scanned. In hand the luster on the SLQ was there but a little muted.

 

After I get enough replies I will post the e-mail response I received from GSC after I sent the coins back.

 

In all fairness this was 6 years ago .

[Nokesville-migration]

Yes, I understand your point, but it was an auction. The price could have easily gone much higher if someone else wanted to pay more. It wasn't a "Buy It Now" product. And I get everything else that you are saying, but WHY is it an AU58 Details coin?

[Mark T]

Yes, I understand your point, but it was an auction. The price could have easily gone much higher if someone else wanted to pay more. It wasn't a "Buy It Now" product. And I get everything else that you are saying, but WHY is it an AU58 Details coin?

 

 

It has the details of an Au 58 and it looks to have been cleaned.

You are really missing point , if the coin was in fact a true MS 61 – or 62 GSC most likely would have had it slabbed and not sold it raw.The fact the coin only bid $705 is a big red flag in itself. The GSC grade “1859-S Seated Liberty Half Dollar BU++” .

As other have said – you should not be purchasing raw coins on EBAY – you are going to get burned. Stick to certified stuff and save yourself time, money and a lot of grief.

I noticed that listing only had one bidder - that does not make much sense - how many people were bidding on this coin ?

[MarkFeld]

Will you please elaborate on why you think it is an AU Details coin, based on the pictures provided? The ANA book that I have says that I need to look for wear on her head above the eye, on her right breast, and on her right knee. As for the reverse, I need to look at the eagle's neck. Based on the picture, both of these areas show no wear or at least I don't think they show any wear. The book doesn't make any mention about wear on the rim of the coin, which is somewhat evident on the reverse. I would be very interested in the specific details of why anyone thinks it would grade AU details; other than just making the statement. Also, it seems that the patina pattern/toning looks similar to legit uncleaned coin pictures that are in the ANA book and on the NGC auction website/database (whatever you call it). Can anyone provide more information about why they think it is cleaned? Thanks in advance.

 

Sorry, but if you're using a grading book to distinguish AU from unc. coins and/or cleaned from non-cleaned ones, you probably shouldn't be buying such coins. Because if you were a profficient grader, you wouldn't need the book.

 

You're excited because you think you might have gotten a steal...just like many other buyers of uncertified coins think they have done.....until they try to sell... and learn a valuable lesson.

 

But several people who are familiar with the seller (who, by the way, is quite knowledgeable and has no reason to provide bargains) have told you, odds are, you've gotten a bad deal, not a good one. You think/hope you can beat the odds. Most people think/hope they can beat the odds. But they can't, or the odds wouldn't be what they are.

 

Which will prevail, common sense or greed?

[Nokesville-migration]

Im not missing the point. Im way past the point of thinking that I got a deal, I want to learn the reasoning for the grade so that I can carry it forward to other Liberty Seated Half Dollars. I was hoping that someone would present the specific reasons for selecting AU58. There is a flat spot here, there is wear there, the stars look abraded, the rim has damage on the reverse, the toning doesn't look natural as evidenced by the splotch there and there. I know that grading is guided by more than a technical definition but there has to be some sort of reasoning behind it. Thank you.

[Nokesville-migration]

Other than the graysheet, does anyone know of another reputable guide for pricing? I found a link for the "NumisMedia Fair Market Value Pricing Guide" website. And what about the NGC Price Guides? I know the RedBook only gives you relative costs, i.e., rarity.

[MarkFeld]

Im not missing the point. Im way past the point of thinking that I got a deal, I want to learn the reasoning for the grade so that I can carry it forward to other Liberty Seated Half Dollars. I was hoping that someone would present the specific reasons for selecting AU58. There is a flat spot here, there is wear there, the stars look abraded, the rim has damage on the reverse, the toning doesn't look natural as evidenced by the splotch there and there. I know that grading is guided by more than a technical definition but there has to be some sort of reasoning behind it. Thank you.

 

That sounds reasonable.

 

Based on how the coin appears in the image provide, I can't eliminate the possibility that it could be unc. - to me, there are no blatant signs that it is AU. However, based on how different from their images coins can and do look in hand, and on what I have read in various threads, my expectation is that this one is AU and/or cleaned.

[Nokesville-migration]

OK, thank-you.

[BillJones]

Mark T

 

Here are my takes on the coins you posted.

 

The 1929 quarter looks to have an acid etched surface as if it was left in the dipping solution for too long. Perhaps the surfaces look that way because of the scan, and if that is the case, that will have to be taken into consideration. As a corollary to the details look "fuzzy" on the coin.

 

Given that assessment my guess is the seller called it "Choice BU, Full Head." My take is AU details, because of the rub on the knee, improperly cleaned. Market value would fall in the EF-40 range if you could find someone who would pay more than melt.

 

The 1829 half dollar looks like an AU-50 to me, but the surfaces look a little grainy. Once more that could be from the scan. There are also two what appears to be PVC spots on the reverse on the eagle's right wing and above the "N" in "UNITED."

 

My guess is they graded this Ch AU. If it has toned since you bought it they may have had it graded "BU" if the surfaces were bright white. Still I don't know about the PVC.

 

[Nokesville-migration]

I just got the coin; it is without a doubt the exact same coin from the picture and it looks the same. I am charging my camera battery now; does anyone have any tips on how to take coin pictures? I tried a couple before the camera battery died and I don't think they will cut the mustard.

[Nokesville-migration]

Also, if you look on the obverse below the left arm there looks like there is a lint mark or die crack? It is a raised piece of metal in the shape of a sickel? Would that add value or collectibility to this series? Im thinking not but those things seem to have an effect on other series.

 

The detail is also unbelievable, I can see the inside of her ear, and the sandal and straps on her foot, even her eyelids. On the reverse, I can see the individual feathers and the eagle's eyelid and "knuckles" on each talon.

 

It seems that the mintmarks for this series are all weakly struck, they are much more recessed than the other letters/mottos and features.

 

Also, there appear to be "halos" of toning around each of the stars on the obverse. Is this a sign that the coin has been cleaned?

[Deerefan8420]

Also, if you look on the obverse below the left arm there looks like there is a lint mark or die crack? It is a raised piece of metal in the shape of a sickel? Would that add value or collectibility to this series? Im thinking not but those things seem to have an effect on other series.

 

That little mark you are seeing is the continuation of Liberty's gown draping over her arm.

[Nokesville-migration]

I took another look, it is so poorly defined, even in the MS-70 example that I have a picture of... thank you.

[Nokesville-migration]

Does anyone know of a dealer in the Northern Virginia area that I might be able to get an in-person assessment from?

[BillJones]

If you want to check out aspects of the Liberty Seated half dollar design, here are two coins that might help you. This one is PR-64

 

 

And here is a business strike of the With Arrows type in MS-63.

 

[Mark T]

Mark T

 

Here are my takes on the coins you posted.

 

The 1929 quarter looks to have an acid etched surface as if it was left in the dipping solution for too long. Perhaps the surfaces look that way because of the scan, and if that is the case, that will have to be taken into consideration. As a corollary to the details look "fuzzy" on the coin.

 

Given that assessment my guess is the seller called it "Choice BU, Full Head." My take is AU details, because of the rub on the knee, improperly cleaned. Market value would fall in the EF-40 range if you could find someone who would pay more than melt.

 

The 1829 half dollar looks like an AU-50 to me, but the surfaces look a little grainy. Once more that could be from the scan. There are also two what appears to be PVC spots on the reverse on the eagle's right wing and above the "N" in "UNITED."

 

My guess is they graded this Ch AU. If it has toned since you bought it they may have had it graded "BU" if the surfaces were bright white. Still I don't know about the PVC.

 

My post has been buried so I will Reveal the grades that GSC gave these 2 coins.

 

1929 Standing Liberty Quarter CH GEM BU+/NEAR SUPERB FH

1829 Capped Bust Half Dollar CHOICE AU+++/UNCIRCULATED

 

The 1929 was an Au 58 – Bill I don’t think it was cleaned . It was close to a FH .

The 1829 was Xf 45 – maybe Au 50. It was pretty crusty . There was no PVC is was Verdigris.

I took these in to Harold Kritzman , he owns Olde Town Coin. He is old school and a very conservative grader. The grades given by GSC suckered me in because at the time I really did not know better and their photos looked great. When I got them in hand even though I had been out of the hobby for many years I knew they were grossly over graded.

Nice job on the grades guess Bill – you were pretty much spot on with the Grades GSC assigned and even knew how they would word it.

Now here is the kicker – I sent an e-mail to them and complained about their over grading.

Their response was

“I can show you countless pictures of NGC AU-58 Bust Halves that look nowhere near as good as this one. As far as strike, sharpness and overall detail, my slabbed coins don’t stand up to that one in any respect. In regards to the quarter, I would have been willing to bet the purchase price of the coin, that the coin would have come back as a minimum 63. “.

That pretty much sums up how they were doing business when I bought coins from them.

 

I found their photo of the 1829 . What was I thinking when I bought that one !@!@

 

 

[BillJones]

Yes, the photo of the 1829 half dollar and the half eagle that was shown earlier have been juiced to beat hell. The work they did on the gold coin would be eye candy for those who know that look is not possible on a real coin.

[Nokesville-migration]

Well, I received the coin and I think I took some good pictures. I would certainly like to hear what everyone has to say about these pictures.

[MarkFeld]

Well, I received the coin and I think I took some good pictures. I would certainly like to hear what everyone has to say about these pictures.

 

Based, in particular, on what looks like light rub on Liberty's legs, my guess is AU.

 

I'm not sure why you posted here - the response has been quite uniform, yet it doesn't seem to have made any difference to you. I'm done. Best of luck to you.

 

 

[Nokesville-migration]

Thanks for the pictures. It seems that the rim shows signs of wear compared to your MS-63 example. Would that play a signficant role in how the coin is graded? I also noticed that what I thought might be a lint mark or die crack was just a weakly struck feature but in the examples that you present this feature is clearly evident. This is the result of different dies, right? You wouldn't expect just that small area to be worn down would you? Or is that possible?