Hey Cosmic! Guess what is now a competitive piece?

[keithdagen]

You guessed it, that dastardly High Relief Saint!!

[Hoot]

Yes! !

 

Hoot

[gmarguli]

It should be. Thy aren't rare. I could have a roll of them within an hour if I wanted.

[BOILER78]

Greg- How many High Reliefs are in a roll? The next question is, when are they going to add the wire edge and rolled edge ten indians?

[keithdagen]

I don't remember where, but I could sweat that one of the NGC guys said that for their purposes, the $10 variants would be considered as patterns and not true issues.

[DWLange]

The two prototype Indian Head Eagles will not be included because these coins were never distributed in the conventional manner. They were souvenir coins obtainable only by those with friends at the mint or connections to President Roosevelt. The Saint-Gaudens High Reliefs, however, were issued to banks as circulating currency and were theoretically obtainable at face value for a very short time. In actual practice, the bank clerks sold them for their own profit at prices ranging from $23 to $35.

[cosmicdebris]

[BOILER78]

I still believe the rolled edge ten indian with its original mintage of 31,550 coins (more than the 1911-d) should not be considered a pattern. These coins were struck for circulation. The fact that that all but 42 were melted does not change the fact that they were originally intended to be used in commerce.

[gmarguli]

Should the 1964-D Peace be part of the set also since they minted a few hundred thousand that were originally intended to be used in commerce, but they were metled?

[BOILER78]

Sure! Why not?

[BOILER78]

Greg

I don't really care if they are included as a part of the type set. I just don't think the rolled edge should be classified as a pattern. Do you think the 64-d Peace dollar should be classified as a pattern?

[gmarguli]

I couldn't say whether they should be called a pattern. Should the 1856 FE cent be called a pattern? Isn't it included in one of the sets? Who knows.

 

Personally, I don't care what is and what isn't included. I'll collect what I like and if that doesn't match what someone else thinks should be in a set, then too bad for them!

[BOILER78]

I agree 100%.!

[keithdagen]

The given reason that the Rolled Edge $10 Indian isn't included is that the coins (Rolled and Wire edges) were clearly struck as patterns. The Rolled Edge was struck in circulation quantities, but was never distributed into any commerce channels, so I can see the arguments that it never "circulated" as well as the argument that it was intended.

 

Similar is the Gobrecht dollar, where the coins were intended as patterns, but most of the mintage was released to banks eventually. There, the pattern/circulation line is a little more clear cut.

 

Either way, the "pattern" $10 Indians are beautiful coins, whether they are included or not.

[BOILER78]

Keith

Who says they were clearly struck as patterns? I believe the rolled edge was struck as a circulation issue and the decision was made to alter the design by lowering the relief to facilitate production at the mint. I think they have been lumped in with patterns for lack of a better classification.

[keithdagen]

Are there any numismatic sources that think the Rolled Edge was not a pattern? All of the (granted limited) books I have, and the auction catalogues I have seen, strongly suggest pattern status.

[BOILER78]

David Akers - "20th Century United States Gold Coins" In reference to the Rolled Edge states, "this issue is listed in Judd's pattern book (J1775) but it is not truly a pattern in the sense that the 1907 Wire Edge is. The Rolled Edge was actually struck in large quantities for circulation but they were melted before ever being released to the public" As I mentioned before, I think it is referred to as a pattern for lack of a better classification.

[keithdagen]

As I mentioned before, I think it is referred to as a pattern for lack of a better classification.

 

Thanks for the reference. You're probably right. A coin minted for circulation, but never released through normal circulation channels. So, with no better way to classify it, it becomes a pattern.

[EVillageProwler]

To classify the coin as a pattern may be the easy thing to do, but is it the correct thing to do? Don't forget that the Gobrecht dollars dated 1836 and 1839 (name on base) are also classified by Judd as being patterns.

 

EVP

 

[Oldtrader3]

I think we are getting into, "How Many Nymph's Can Dance on the Head of a Pin?" They were never released for circulation. So, IMHO, they are not business strikes.

[braddick]

I KNEW my Mom was BS'ing me when she called them 'Angels'!