White Tuxes for my Foreigns
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7 posts in this topic

Crossing over five PCGS world coins over to NGC confirms one of my long held suspicions, but does not effectively answer the question, does NGC under grade its world coins or does PCGS over grade theirs? The world may never know, however this I do know with certainty, NGC is more conservative in grading world coins than PCGS is.

 

Most of you will recall that earlier in the year NGC changed their policy of allowing PCGS coins into their world registry to an exclusively NGC registry. I remember being especially annoyed that my complete set of Netherlands Wilhelmina 10 Gulden gold coins was no longer complete in the eyes of NGC. I originally took a defiant position by refusing to cross my PCGS coins over to NGC. I even launched my own web site for the express purpose of writing my own rules.

 

My long-standing goal for this set is MS-65 and higher for the entire set and unfortunately, upgrades of this quality are few and far in between. Upgrades can also be expensive, combining the increased purchase price of the new coins with the seller fees of the old coins. Regardless, I had always been willing to bear the brunt of the cost to own not only the top set competitively, but also the best set possible.

 

For a long time I have been suspicious that NGC is more conservative in their grading of Wilhelmina coins than PCGS as evidenced by the top-heavy PCGS population report. However comparing NGC and PCGS population reports may be like comparing apples and oranges because PCGS has graded a lot more of these coins than NGC, thus potentially skewing a comparison.

 

Until now, the only way to prove whether NGC is more conservative was to cross my PCGS coins over to NGC. As of recently, Ive had the following PCGS Wilhelminas in my set, a MS-63 1898, MS-65 1911, and MS-67 1917. With the scarcity and cost of upgrades and a goal of MS-65 or higher, I thought I had a chance to cross the 1911 and 1917 coins to MS-65 and avoid purchasing new coins. With that, I sent those two coins, the 1898 Wilhelmina, a MS-69 1998 Britannia, and a red MS-65 1898 French 10 Centime coin for cross over to NGC with this years five free submission coupon.

 

I knew the 1917 would grade lower based on NGCs population report of only two MS-67s in the entire series, but the wildcard was the 1911, would it hold at MS-65? I was taking a big chance that it would grade MS-64 instead. However, I honestly felt that the grade of MS-65 was fair and would hold making this coin one of four top-pops in the NGC population report. Interestingly the 1911 is the most heavily toned gold coin I own. Did the toning have an equalizing effect on both PCGS and NGC graders? In the end, I think it did because out of the five coins, this coin was the only coin to hold its grade at MS-65. All the other coins came in one grade lower (the 1917 at MS-66), confirming my suspicion of more conservative grading on world coins only, but not really answering the question I posed in the first paragraph of this post.

 

Currently, my 11-coin set has four MS-66, four MS-65, two MS-64, and one MS-62 coins. Of those coins the 1932, 1927, 1912, and the newly graded 1911 are top pops. Based on this, it appears that my goals are coming together rather nicely. Additionally, I have a line on a MS-64 1898 that I hope pans out to make the rest of the set one grade lower than the top pop coins. Now my set is both complete and consistent in the eyes NGC. The term white tux referring to NGCs holder is a borrowed term from another Collectors Society member. Until next time, Happy collecting!

Gary

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It just doesn't seem right for NGC to downgrade 4 coins and cross only 1. After all we have been here for 5 to 10 years always keeping score by the rules NGC makes and now our foreign coins that are graded by PCGS have to be degraded for enlistment. It is almost like a gamble purchasing a ANACS coin and crossing to NGC. I expect the ANACS grades to be lower there but PCGS if even a little more on the lower end of the grade should cross.

 

Your 1911 Wilhelmina is a beautiful piece!!!!

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I have come to the complete belief that PCGS over grades their coins. I have had some NGC coins crossed to PCGS with all crossing over at the same grade but one and that one went up a grade.

 

Conversely, I am batting just .500 when sending PCGS coins to NGC. That is extremely frustrating and KUDO's to NGC for having the crossover special so they could show people they just aren't taking the grading fee and sending the crossover coins right back! I think it would be very good for their biz to keep that special as a regular menu item. They would get more people sending in coins for xover if they knew it would only cost them $5 and return shipping if the coin doesn't cross.

 

Before I would downgrade my coins to get them to NGC I would simply sell them and look for another already graded by NGC. I say this from experience.

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I completely agree with your comments. My experience also confirms your observations about world coin crossovers from PCGS to NGC, at least with East Germany. Having had several PCGS coins not crossed at equal grade by NGC, I am now more careful to choose graded NGC examples over PCGS as long as they pass the ever important "eyeball test". Quite frankly, I can usually get a nicer coin at a better price. There is also absolutely nothing wrong with sending in your own raw treasure and delight in having it come back from NGC at a higher grade than expected! Just my thoughts.

 

 

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Glad to see people crossing PCGS to NGC because I see the other way so much ATS. I dont have a world registry but people who were upset at what NGC did shouldn't be as if you had a PCGS registry, they wouldn't even allow any NGC coins in their.

 

 

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There is nothing more disappointing that to get graded down in an attempted crossover. Not only it is heartbreaking, it can also be financially devastating. Many collectors, though I am not including myself, think that PCGS is a harder grader, and will pay more for a PCGS graded coin than an NGC graded coin of the same grade. Therefore, It is possible that you will take a financial hit even if it crosses straight over. If it gets downgraded, there is a very good chance that a financial loss will occur (at least short-term).

 

I have crossed over a few myself, with mixed results. Some crossed the same, some were upgraded, and some downgraded. The good feelings I get from the upgrades never seem to offset the disappointments from the downgrades.

 

If possible, I try to wait for one that is already graded by NGC. That way, there is no risk of crossover downgrades, no cost to regrade (don't forget the postage!) and the NGC graded item may be able to be acquired for less than the PCGS graded item in the same grade.

 

At least you were anticipating a potential downgrade, so it did not come as a complete surprise. Good luck with your collection!

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Some may think me crazy for what I have done, but let me list the logical reasons and rational to my thought process for what I did.

 

1. This only applies to my world coins and sets, of which three of eleven coins in the Wilhelmina set were PCGS coins. Years ago I threw my lot with NGC and pursued their registry, meaning that a complete set with coins from both grading services in either registry was not possible. Therefore, all upgrades and replacements are already NGC coins. Furthermore, because I have been primarily focused on NGC world coins, those coins that I had crossed to NGC are practically the last PCGS world coins I own.

 

2. I have followed the market on Wilhelminas for years and there is not that much discernible difference between NGC and PCGS on these coins only. Furthermore, I have no intention of selling them any time soon

 

3. Acceptable NGC upgrades and replacements are few and far in between, especially in the higher grades.

 

4. Coins I already owned could potentially cross over at even, or lower grades and still comply with the MS-65 or higher requirement for this set.

 

5. I don't view my collection primarily as an investment. Therefore, I approached this completely from a collectors point view in that the coins, regardless of the holder are the same coins. When I repopulated my set, I used the same pictures that I used when they were PCGS coins.

 

6. I am much more comfortable with grades that are more conservative being a truer representation of the coins grade. In the area of US coins it seems that both grading services are close to being accurate, but with world coins they are quite a bit different.

 

7. It was always going to be cheaper to keep the high quality coins I already owned rather than to buy new coins and sell the old. Like I stated the 1911 Wilhelmina was the coin I really needed to cross at the same grade, and it did as an NGC top pop!

 

Naturally I would have liked to cross my coins at the same or higher grades, but I am not that disappointed with the results. Even the French 10 centimes while grading MS-64 rather than 65 kept its RED designation. I had expected NGC to rule the coin RB. The Britannia really wasn't going to make that much difference than to hopefully cross even and avoid an upgrade of 68, oh well, there is not always that much difference in the marketplace on these either except that MS-69 Britannias are rare.

Gary

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