dan carr oregon commem and new 2oz hologram

[brg5658]

Your creations are very nice, the result of a talented mind.

 

 

I don't understand what people think is so creative about stealing a U.S. Government design and changing a mint mark or a date?? Yes, DC has designed some coins and tokens on his own, but it seems the "fantasy" pieces, or whatever people call them, get a lot of attention. There is nothing creative about striking a coin with a design you had nothing to do with. Well, nothing creative beyond what the Chinese do every day...

 

IMO it's a waste of a perfectly good genuine commemorative...

 

 

 

I assumed he was using something like 64 Kennedy Halves to strike over.

 

Nope. His website says "These are not copies of Oregon Trail silver half dollars - they are privately over-struck on GENUINE government-issue Oregon Trail silver half dollars that were originally minted from 1926-1939."

[realone]

Gaaak!

 

More fakes.

 

More fakes without the word "COPY" as required by law. Identical to the Chinese junk collectors complain about.

 

No 1927-D ever existed, so this isn't a copy.

 

Come on, I am not an expert in the series, I just saw the photo and thought it was real, that is the point. These are copies/fakes just like what comes out of China just better made, a lot better but fakes nonetheless, when one has to be an expert in the type to know if that mm for the date was actually made or not is the point here. When I see a design for the era why should i think it isn't real if it looks real. This is ridiculous and you know it. Who the heck would know that a '27-D didn't exist if one is a novice.

 

 

Do you really want to use that card? The date card? I mean Should we protect people from buying 1904 Silver Eagles?

 

Idon't like copies period. I don't like overstrikes period. I don't like confusion in our hobby period. i think DC has a huge amount of talent that s going wasted when he makes fake U.S. coins. If he would put the word COPY on it then fine, but he won't so I am against it. When he comes up with his own design I am in awe of his work. If you want to compare his work to 1904 Silver Eagles go right ahead, I have never seen one, but I also don't think they are a problem other numismatically since I can figure that one out, but your description reminds me of a cheap amusement park token btw, tha tis in a totally different class.

[Bruceswar]

Gaaak!

 

More fakes.

 

More fakes without the word "COPY" as required by law. Identical to the Chinese junk collectors complain about.

 

No 1927-D ever existed, so this isn't a copy.

 

Come on, I am not an expert in the series, I just saw the photo and thought it was real, that is the point. These are copies/fakes just like what comes out of China just better made, a lot better but fakes nonetheless, when one has to be an expert in the type to know if that mm for the date was actually made or not is the point here. When I see a design for the era why should i think it isn't real if it looks real. This is ridiculous and you know it. Who the heck would know that a '27-D didn't exist if one is a novice.

 

 

Do you really want to use that card? The date card? I mean Should we protect people from buying 1904 Silver Eagles?

 

Idon't like copies period. I don't like overstrikes period. I don't like confusion in our hobby period. i think DC has a huge amount of talent that s going wasted when he makes fake U.S. coins. If he would put the word COPY on it then fine, but he won't so I am against it. When he comes up with his own design I am in awe of his work. If you want to compare his work to 1904 Silver Eagles go right ahead, I have never seen one, but I also don't think they are a problem other numismatically since I can figure that one out, but your description reminds me of a cheap amusement park token btw, tha tis in a totally different class.

 

I have seen silver eagles dated, as far back as the 1880's all the way till present. Ofc they were easy to spot for me, but to others maybe not. The 1904 looked pretty good as far as copies go.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Your creations are very nice, the result of a talented mind.

 

 

I don't understand what people think is so creative about stealing a U.S. Government design and changing a mint mark or a date?? Yes, DC has designed some coins and tokens on his own, but it seems the "fantasy" pieces, or whatever people call them, get a lot of attention. There is nothing creative about striking a coin with a design you had nothing to do with. Well, nothing creative beyond what the Chinese do every day...

 

IMO it's a waste of a perfectly good genuine commemorative...

 

 

 

I agree with you that it's a waste of a perfectly good commem, but it does take talent and skill to create something that *could* have existed alongside the real examples, and looks good enough to fool anyone not familiar with the series.

 

It would fool every single one of my family members, and I have actual rocket scientists among them...it doesn't look "fake" is my point.

[dcarr]

I assumed he was using something like 64 Kennedy Halves to strike over.

 

I use actual Oregon Trail half dollars because, due to the high relief, nothing else will work. And I prefer not to change the actual coin type (design).

 

But the ones I use are cleaned or scatched, or otherwise unattractive.

 

[MJ]

I honestly don't put to much stock into what others think as I'm not certain what personal agendas they have. We are all wired differently and I'm not a mind reader. I'm not a save a person from himself kind of guy. Nor am I a "this might happen some day so it must be stopped kind of guy". I'm a be true to myself kind of dude.

 

I am rather certain what I like. I love Oregon's. Here are a few to my fledgling set below. Yes, I also picked up one of Dan's 27'D's as well. I'm going to coin hell, I know. I suck. I know.

 

FWIW I think the Frasier's would be flattered. I know I am when somebody knocks off or does an inturpretation of my original work. I'm especially flattered when someone dusts off an old one and revives it. I've had original designs sell into the tens of million so I speak with a little perspective.

 

Collecting is what you make it.

 

MJ

 

[AnkurJ]

Gorgeous examples MJ!

[indiananationals-migration]

those are mind blowing examples congrats on the great collection

[JStull]

Gaaak!

 

More fakes.

 

More fakes without the word "COPY" as required by law. Identical to the Chinese junk collectors complain about.

 

No 1927-D ever existed, so this isn't a copy.

 

You're correct. It's altered and therefor counterfeit.

[MarkFeld]

Gaaak!

 

More fakes.

 

More fakes without the word "COPY" as required by law. Identical to the Chinese junk collectors complain about.

 

No 1927-D ever existed, so this isn't a copy.

 

You're correct. It's altered and therefor counterfeit.

 

I think that is incorrect. I believe it is an altered GENUINE coin. And that is different from a counterfeit.

[PerryHall]

Gaaak!

 

More fakes.

 

More fakes without the word "COPY" as required by law. Identical to the Chinese junk collectors complain about.

 

No 1927-D ever existed, so this isn't a copy.

 

You're correct. It's altered and therefor counterfeit.

 

Hobo nickels and chopmarked trade dollars are altered and therefore must be counterfeit using your logic.

[Buffalo Head]

I believe Dan Car is an Artist and a very good one at that. I think his work is fabulous and would purchase some of his work. I did purchase the 1964-D peace dollar and I think it's very nice & interesting at the same time. Do folks think it's real? Not even close. Just an interesting piece of art......Joe

 

[realone]

Hobo 5c's are defaced or altered genuine 5cers. While I can appreciate the pedigreed early ones as something that takes us back in time to the ole days, I don't like them, but I realize there are a precious few who do but I don't see what that has to do with DC's NEW creations other than the defacing aspect of some of his pieces. Nothing historic about his wares.

 

Again DC is an incredible artist, I realize he is a master minter no doubt. I just rather see him create coins that are in no way confused with the U.S. minted pieces and I don't appreciate his overstrikes. I think anything that he produces that is original is a great product because of his enormous talent.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I believe Dan Car is an Artist and a very good one at that. I think his work is fabulous and would purchase some of his work. I did purchase the 1964-D peace dollar and I think it's very nice & interesting at the same time. Do folks think it's real? Not even close. Just an interesting piece of art......Joe

 

Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, and yes. A thousand times, yes. It is made from a genuine Peace dollar, and looks, feels, sounds, smells, and tastes just like a "real" coin.

 

You're speaking from the benefit of knowledge. "No one" here would think this is "real."

 

But the majority of people are NOT coin collectors, and would have no idea. If the "creation" happened to fall into the hands of someone who doesn't know...a VERY easy prospect....it would be a wild assumption to even think they'd do any research...and if they did, they'd likely only see "1964-D Peace dollar made, but all melted, and none exist, or so it is assumed" and think they have a fabulous rarity.

 

Harm could be done before knowledge was obtained. Substantial harm.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"this might happen some day so it must be stopped kind of guy".

 

I'm not aware of anyone in this thread saying that DCarr "must be stopped."

 

Be careful when making leaps...you never know how sturdy the ground on the other side may be.

 

[realone]

I believe Dan Car is an Artist and a very good one at that. I think his work is fabulous and would purchase some of his work. I did purchase the 1964-D peace dollar and I think it's very nice & interesting at the same time. Do folks think it's real? Not even close. Just an interesting piece of art......Joe

 

Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, and yes. A thousand times, yes. It is made from a genuine Peace dollar, and looks, feels, sounds, smells, and tastes just like a "real" coin.

 

You're speaking from the benefit of knowledge. "No one" here would think this is "real."

 

But the majority of people are NOT coin collectors, and would have no idea. If the "creation" happened to fall into the hands of someone who doesn't know...a VERY easy prospect....it would be a wild assumption to even think they'd do any research...and if they did, they'd likely only see "1964-D Peace dollar made, but all melted, and none exist, or so it is assumed" and think they have a fabulous rarity.

 

Harm could be done before knowledge was obtained. Substantial harm.

 

 

Agreed, we are a group of coi collectors, from newbees to experts and everything in between. SO DC's product would be easily figured out here but out in the real world where noncollectors and scum exist it becomes a whole new ballgame and the ignorant which makes up the majority needs to be protected.

[dcarr]

I believe Dan Car is an Artist and a very good one at that. I think his work is fabulous and would purchase some of his work. I did purchase the 1964-D peace dollar and I think it's very nice & interesting at the same time. Do folks think it's real? Not even close. Just an interesting piece of art......Joe

 

Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, and yes. A thousand times, yes. It is made from a genuine Peace dollar, and looks, feels, sounds, smells, and tastes just like a "real" coin.

 

You're speaking from the benefit of knowledge. "No one" here would think this is "real."

 

But the majority of people are NOT coin collectors, and would have no idea. If the "creation" happened to fall into the hands of someone who doesn't know...a VERY easy prospect....it would be a wild assumption to even think they'd do any research...and if they did, they'd likely only see "1964-D Peace dollar made, but all melted, and none exist, or so it is assumed" and think they have a fabulous rarity.

 

Harm could be done before knowledge was obtained. Substantial harm.

 

What non-collector, who knows next to nothing, is going to pay a lot for a "1964" dollar ? Sure, they might decide to risk $10 or $20 on something they know nothing about, in which case they would be getting a good deal for one of my over-strikes. But this mythological person, who would spend hundreds or thousands on a coin they know nothing about, doesn't exist. And even if they did, they would be more likely to spend too much on a polished coin advertised as "BU".

 

With the wealth of information on the internet, it would only take a person a minute to find out the facts. I just did a search for "1964 Silver Dollar", and one of the top sites listed was the "Peace Dollar" article at Wikipedia. That article has a clear picture of one of my over-strikes and the image caption clearly states: "An unofficially produced 1964-D Peace dollar, struck over a genuine silver dollar by a private mint".

[dcarr]

Agreed, we are a group of coi collectors, from newbees to experts and everything in between. SO DC's product would be easily figured out here but out in the real world where noncollectors and scum exist it becomes a whole new ballgame and the ignorant which makes up the majority needs to be protected.

 

No matter how hard you try, you can not prevent ignorance. All the necessary information is readily available. If someone refuses to spend even one minute to look something up, you will never be able to protect them from themselves or from others.

 

If someone is intent on commiting numismatic fraud, they will find some coin to do it with - like a polished/whizzed coin presented as a BU. In such a case, the fault lies not with the coin itself, but with the person committing the fraud.

 

[MJ]

"this might happen some day so it must be stopped kind of guy".

 

I'm not aware of anyone in this thread saying that DCarr "must be stopped."

 

 

 

Nor did I. It, not he. Dan's response to Realone in the post above expresses better what I was driving at. MJ

[nk1nk]

Dan's last two posts are spot on 100% true. The whole save people from their own ignorance is such a waste of time.

 

Nick

[brg5658]

What non-collector, who knows next to nothing, is going to pay a lot for a "1964" dollar ? Sure, they might decide to risk $10 or $20 on something they know nothing about, in which case they would be getting a good deal for one of my over-strikes. But this mythological person, who would spend hundreds or thousands on a coin they know nothing about, doesn't exist. And even if they did, they would be more likely to spend too much on a polished coin advertised as "BU".

 

Well, I'm glad you charge so much for your pieces as a service to people so as they don't "accidentally" purchase one thinking it's real!

[RockMyAmadeus]

I believe Dan Car is an Artist and a very good one at that. I think his work is fabulous and would purchase some of his work. I did purchase the 1964-D peace dollar and I think it's very nice & interesting at the same time. Do folks think it's real? Not even close. Just an interesting piece of art......Joe

 

Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, and yes. A thousand times, yes. It is made from a genuine Peace dollar, and looks, feels, sounds, smells, and tastes just like a "real" coin.

 

You're speaking from the benefit of knowledge. "No one" here would think this is "real."

 

But the majority of people are NOT coin collectors, and would have no idea. If the "creation" happened to fall into the hands of someone who doesn't know...a VERY easy prospect....it would be a wild assumption to even think they'd do any research...and if they did, they'd likely only see "1964-D Peace dollar made, but all melted, and none exist, or so it is assumed" and think they have a fabulous rarity.

 

Harm could be done before knowledge was obtained. Substantial harm.

 

What non-collector, who knows next to nothing, is going to pay a lot for a "1964" dollar ?

 

Entire conglomerations (QVC, et al) have been built on that very principle: that people who know "next to nothing" can be fooled into believing something has value when it doesn't.

 

Sure, they might decide to risk $10 or $20 on something they know nothing about, in which case they would be getting a good deal for one of my over-strikes.

 

Pure supposition. Your hypotheses that someone "might risk $10 or $20" is no less valid than someone spending $1,000 for it, because they believe it to be something it is not.

 

But this mythological person, who would spend hundreds or thousands on a coin they know nothing about, doesn't exist.

 

Again...the QVC example. Such people are not only NOT mythological, they are everyday people.

 

And even if they did, they would be more likely to spend too much on a polished coin advertised as "BU".

 

Again, absolute supposition.

 

With the wealth of information on the internet, it would only take a person a minute to find out the facts. I just did a search for "1964 Silver Dollar", and one of the top sites listed was the "Peace Dollar" article at Wikipedia. That article has a clear picture of one of my over-strikes and the image caption clearly states: "An unofficially produced 1964-D Peace dollar, struck over a genuine silver dollar by a private mint".

 

As any 3rd year psych student can tell you, people tend to believe that what they have is not the common, but the rare. Since the article itself mentions "restruck", and since most non-collectors don't know what a "restrike" is (a misnomer at best in your case), your theory that non-collecters searching will even acknowledge, much less understand, what your creations are based on that brief mention in Wikipedia is dubious at best.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"this might happen some day so it must be stopped kind of guy".

 

I'm not aware of anyone in this thread saying that DCarr "must be stopped."

 

 

 

Nor did I. It, not he. Dan's response to Realone in the post above expresses better what I was driving at. MJ

 

I'm not aware of anyone in this thread prior to my original response saying that "it" "must be stopped."

[RockMyAmadeus]

The whole save people from their own ignorance is such a waste of time.

 

Nick

 

I completely agree. My issue is not "saving" anyone from anything.

 

My issue is with the creation of items whose very purpose is to look as much like a genuine mint product as possible. In no obvious way are these pieces marked to show that they are not what they represent themselves to be: actual Mint made products.

 

Consider the aforementioned Hobo nickels. They are purposely created to NOT look like the originals in any way. The less they look like the host design, the better.

 

Not so these creations. In every way they are designed to look precisely like AN original mint product; even the "difference" that distinguishes it (in most cases, the date) has been paintsakingly created to match what it *might* have looked like, had it been officially issued.

 

And all so professionally done as to be indistinguishable to the untrained eye....

 

Bit of a slippery slope. After all, if all this can be done with something as *obvious* as a date, perfectly "restriking" to add, or dispose of, say, a mintmark should be child's play......

[lcoopie]

are we to have these same posts each time a new piece is struck?

 

people can buy what they like, make what they like within the law,

and others should respect that.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

are we to have these same posts each time a new piece is struck?

 

people can buy what they like, make what they like within the law,

 

Agreed.

 

and others should respect that.

 

 

On the contrary. Agreeable dissent is the backbone of our civilization.

 

After all...the law you reference...how do you think it gets made, without people voicing disagreement...?

 

 

[PO01 Commem]

If the 27-D Oregon isn't a fake because it didn't exist then if the Chinese make a wrong date or mint mark for a Trade Dollar that did exist why are they considered counterfeits?

[RWB]

“The Hobby Protection Act and its corresponding regulations, located at 15 United States Code §2101 et seq. and 16 Code of Federal Regulations §304.1 et seq., prohibit the manufacture and importation into the U.S. of “original numismatic items” not marked “COPY” according to size and location parameters set forth in the regulations.

 

“The act is enforceable through civil actions in federal district court by “any interested person” (15 U.S.C. §2102), through enforcement actions by the FTC (15 U.S.C. §2103), and “seizure and forfeiture” of nonconforming items by the U.S. Customs Service (15 U.S.C. §2104).

 

“Original numismatic items” are defined in the act as any “coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or which has been used to commemorate a person or event ... [includ[ing] coins, tokens, paper money and commemorative medals.”

 

“In addition to all legal tender coins, according to the FTC “used in exchange” was meant to cover silver ingots that circulated in the Old West, and coins such as the Mexico 50-peso coins that traded at bullion value, but were never recognized by their governments as legal tender.

 

“All the fake U.S. coins currently being imported in droves from China are covered by the act.

 

“Chinese replicas

 

“Even Chinese-made replicas of coins that never existed — such as 1878-O Morgan dollars, which were freely available on eBay until recently, would be covered by the act, based on a June 2005 federal court decision in New York that interprets the act as applying to “any item that ‘purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item.’ ”

 

[source: “Protecting the hobby.Hobby Protection Act does part” by Armen Vartian | March 09, 2012 9:58 a.m. Article first published in 2012-03-19, Expert Advice section of Coin World. ]

 

[dcarr]

If the 27-D Oregon isn't a fake because it didn't exist then if the Chinese make a wrong date or mint mark for a Trade Dollar that did exist why are they considered counterfeits?

 

Chinese trade dollar (and other) fakes are:

 

1) Often sold as genuine by the original maker.

 

2) Struck on anonymous cheap "pot metal" blanks - not even real silver.

 

3) Appear to be legal tender dollars, but aren't.

 

 

My "1927-D" Oregon Trail fantasy coins are:

 

1) Always advertised with full disclosure.

 

2) Over-struck on genuine Oregon Trail silver half dollars - no metal added or removed - no heating or melting.

 

3) Legal-tender coins which were altered/defaced (like a "hobo" nickel, for example).

 

4) Of obvious origin due to the use of dates which were never originally issued for the coin type.

 

Note that defacing money is legal, so long as it is not done for fraudulent purposes.

 

So the Chinese pieces are actually currency counterfeits. If spent at the one-dollar face value, the maker would gain a profit at the expense of everyone else (via dilution of the value of all dollars in circulation).

 

I do not claim that my pieces are legal tender after the over-striking. But the apparent face value is never increased by the over-striking.

 

PS:

eBay has banned all sales of Chinese copies. However, eBay continues to allow my over-strikes to be sold as "fantasy" coins.

 

[coinman_23885]

Zero interest, shouldn't even be considered in the U.S. Coin category here, they are not U.S. coins.

 

I agree, and I could care less about any distinction between counterfeits/replicas and "fantasy strikes." All are worthless imitation knockoffs in my opinion.